horhey232 Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 So to start things off please remember I am in California so I can NOT just go out and buy a STI open gun. So I recently came across an old Para P14 and want to make it into an open class gun and I understand that it will need some gunsmithing done. I want to make it an open gun shooting major. My first question is should I make it a 9 major or just make it shoot .40? Second I know I will have to cut the frame to allow for a ramped barrel I am assuming I need to cut it to a Para/Clark specifications and not Wilson/Nowlin. Will this cause any feeding issues with using factory Para P16/P18 magazines (depending on what caliber I go)? Any help will help especially from people that have experienced building one first hand. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino_aki Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 (edited) If you build it in .40 you don't necessarily have to cut the frame...I ran an un-ramped .40 for quite a while when the first Para frame kits came out and Major power factor was 175. With it now at 165, I don't think you'd have to worry about blow-outs, as long as you didn't go overboard on throating your barrel. Magazine capacity will be down, obviously, unless you run across someone with those STI for Para 170's that STI used to make. What might technically be hardest is finding a reamer for whatever comp you decide on to open it up for .40. I don't see why Major 9 shouldn't work if you can find magazines, which I understand can be a bit of a hassle for you. The bed of the Para frame if it's un-ramped is the same as a 1911 so you can have it cut either way; Wilson/Nowlin or Para/Clark. Depending upon the frame you have, sometimes the tolerances are a bit generous so slide fit can be on the loose side. Another area to watch is how the sear spring fits in the well under the mainspring housing. Sometimes there is too much lateral play that allows the spring to tilt which can play havoc with the fire control system. Sometimes the slot for the spring's tang is cut too low in the frame and you'll find that the sear spring fingers may barely touch where they're supposed to on the sear and disconnector. The sear pin and hammer pin holes tend to be a bit oversize and you may have to ream them for oversize pins if you want to get a decent trigger job. These are the areas where I've had problems (you may not) otherwise building an Open gun on a Para frame is fairly straightforward as Open guns go. You also may want to experiment with Mec-gar magazines as Para factory mags, especially the ten round variety, can be really sticky...like pry it with a screwdriver sticky. There is also the little problem of magazine length versus frame length, the older frames were shorter in the grip as were the magazines, so older and current magazines will work with currently available magwells on an older frame. Only magazines measuring 5.700 (measured along back of magazine from feed lip to base) will fit in current frames with add-on wells like the ones from Dawson. Older mags measure 5.620. The Smith and Alexander magwell will work with both lengths of magazine because you have to cut the bottom of the frame to install it. Dawson basepads will work with just about any magwell with the proper length magazines. Any basepads that are non-beveled where they slide on to the magazine base will have to be modified to fit add on magwells. That said, I am taking the top end off my .38 Super Para Open gun and sending it along with a Caspian race ready single stack frame off to Doug Jones to fit up...the Para Open gun having been previously Accu-railed to correct a loose slide to frame fit. I've grown frustrated with trying to remedy the above mentioned sear spring problem in this particular gun and as I live in a ten-round magazine state a single-stack Open gun can still be competitive. Edited November 20, 2015 by gino_aki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 (edited) The dust cover of the para frame is pretty thin and can crack at screw holes (below) . You may want to consider a slide mount dot, a dual side frame mount or have someone add some metal to the side for a single side. Edited November 20, 2015 by ChuckS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horhey232 Posted November 20, 2015 Author Share Posted November 20, 2015 The dust cover of the para frame is pretty thin and can crack at screw holes (below) . You may want to consider a slide mount dot, a dual side frame mount or have someone add some metal to the side for a single side. MountHoleCrack.jpg Alright so it looks like it is going to be a dual side frame mount CMORE since I am not a huge fan of slide mounted red dots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 The dust cover of the para frame is pretty thin and can crack at screw holes (below) . You may want to consider a slide mount dot, a dual side frame mount or have someone add some metal to the side for a single side. MountHoleCrack.jpg Alright so it looks like it is going to be a dual side frame mount CMORE since I am not a huge fan of slide mounted red dots. You could get someone to weld/silver solder a hunk of metal there to reinforce it. Or just use a Serendipity. I originally went with .40 since that was what I was set up for, brass was more or less free. With help from Beven Grams, I was able to get 26 rounds in some STI for Para tubes that I scrounged up. I also have an SVI (old style, I guess, because it is old. ) that works well with the Para mag catch. Had 9 been an option back then, I probably would of done that. More rounds and many more bullets to choose from. Later, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horhey232 Posted November 20, 2015 Author Share Posted November 20, 2015 The dust cover of the para frame is pretty thin and can crack at screw holes (below) . You may want to consider a slide mount dot, a dual side frame mount or have someone add some metal to the side for a single side. MountHoleCrack.jpg Alright so it looks like it is going to be a dual side frame mount CMORE since I am not a huge fan of slide mounted red dots. You could get someone to weld/silver solder a hunk of metal there to reinforce it. Or just use a Serendipity. I originally went with .40 since that was what I was set up for, brass was more or less free. With help from Beven Grams, I was able to get 26 rounds in some STI for Para tubes that I scrounged up. I also have an SVI (old style, I guess, because it is old. ) that works well with the Para mag catch. Had 9 been an option back then, I probably would of done that. More rounds and many more bullets to choose from. Later, Chuck Thanks Chuck! I think I am just going to get the Serendipity mount to make life easy. Still thinking about shooting 9 major or just being lazy and shooting .40. The thing that is attracting me about .40 is that in a tight spot i can run to a Walmart and pick up some factory .40 and still make major pf. The magazines are still confusing me a little. I was planning on getting some p16 magazines and putting on some Dawson baseplates on them and put in 10 round limiters when I am competing in CA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino_aki Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 You do have to check your magazine versus frame length...otherwise those pretty Dawson basepads will crack right where they slide on to the magazine's base. Ask me how I know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LM2032 Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 I played around with a few of the Paras a while back for limited and open. The P14 and P16 magazines worked ok. The P18 mags are a different story. There are two types out there. There's a 9mm and a 9mm/38 super. The older 9mm only-marked mags are somewhat hard to find. The 9mm/38 super mags are not at all reliable with 9mm. You have to reform the indented sections at the top of the mag to get the rounds to keep them from nosediving due to the 9mm being tapered. The reforming process involves heating the mags up, reform them, refinish them as necessary, and polish up the feed lips. If you load long, it is possible to get the P18 9/38s mags to run without spacers. Those mags are reliable with 38 super though. A while back, Para was supposedly redesigning the mags for the P18 to actually run 9mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horhey232 Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 Does anyone know if I should have the frame cut to accept ramped barrels or should I keep it unmodified? The previous owner did try to create a different ramp so I think it would be best to go ramped. Also picked up a new Caspian 9mm slide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRush Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Does anyone know if I should have the frame cut to accept ramped barrels or should I keep it unmodified? The previous owner did try to create a different ramp so I think it would be best to go ramped. Also picked up a new Caspian 9mm slide. Yes, you need to have the frame cut for ramped barrels. 9 major or 40 are both fairly high pressure pistol catridges. A ramped barrel will provide better case support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troupe Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 Call Don Fraley at Advanced Weapons Technology 606-923-4564. Don built my Para many (30) years ago, and he can make a Para sing. My old Para has been shot many , many rounds, been sold through many folks here on Enos and is still running. The gun has to have over 100 K through it. I found out that it had been sold on Enos last year to a guy, I had not seen the pistol in many years. Don will treat you the way smiths used to do work. Very reasonable. Check out the AWT web site. The open gun is my pistol and it is in Major 9 and it run flawless. Tell Don that Tommy Roupe sent you, it just may help you with your Para. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMontie Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 I'm the guy that has Troupe's old Para. Still shoots good, I'm thinking about sending back to Don Fraley to have him go through it. The only problem I have is the dust cover is thin, not much for the mount screws to bite into. As far as magazines, I bout 170's and 140's from SPS for a decent price. They ran good out of the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troupe Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 James, you got a good one. Don knows how to make one run. Glad to hear that is doing well for you, I can't say enough good about that pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horhey232 Posted January 26, 2016 Author Share Posted January 26, 2016 Call Don Fraley at Advanced Weapons Technology 606-923-4564. Don built my Para many (30) years ago, and he can make a Para sing. My old Para has been shot many , many rounds, been sold through many folks here on Enos and is still running. The gun has to have over 100 K through it. I found out that it had been sold on Enos last year to a guy, I had not seen the pistol in many years. Don will treat you the way smiths used to do work. Very reasonable. Check out the AWT web site. The open gun is my pistol and it is in Major 9 and it run flawless. Tell Don that Tommy Roupe sent you, it just may help you with your Para. I may have to shoot over a call and have him go through it. The previous owner did a trigger job on it that I like a lot. I have decided on VZ grips and a Dawson magwell. I mentioned before that I have a Caspian 9mm slide now with no sight cuts and is so tight I can't get it on all the way. All that is left is the CMORE and the barrel / comp and getting someone to fit it all together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horhey232 Posted January 26, 2016 Author Share Posted January 26, 2016 Also on the frame cut which cut should I get? I thought I would be getting a Para cut since it is a Para gun but this barrel / comp combo is tempting but it is a Wilson / Nowlin cut. http://www.speedshooter.com/product_detail.cfm?id=STITB2&n= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMontie Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Call Don Fraley at Advanced Weapons Technology 606-923-4564. Don built my Para many (30) years ago, and he can make a Para sing. My old Para has been shot many , many rounds, been sold through many folks here on Enos and is still running. The gun has to have over 100 K through it. I found out that it had been sold on Enos last year to a guy, I had not seen the pistol in many years. Don will treat you the way smiths used to do work. Very reasonable. Check out the AWT web site. The open gun is my pistol and it is in Major 9 and it run flawless. Tell Don that Tommy Roupe sent you, it just may help you with your Para. I may have to shoot over a call and have him go through it. The previous owner did a trigger job on it that I like a lot. I have decided on VZ grips and a Dawson magwell. I mentioned before that I have a Caspian 9mm slide now with no sight cuts and is so tight I can't get it on all the way. All that is left is the CMORE and the barrel / comp and getting someone to fit it all together. I did email Don, he told me he charges more for Para builds. I think it has to do with the grip and extra work. It wasn't much, a couple hundred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horhey232 Posted February 5, 2016 Author Share Posted February 5, 2016 Call Don Fraley at Advanced Weapons Technology 606-923-4564. Don built my Para many (30) years ago, and he can make a Para sing. My old Para has been shot many , many rounds, been sold through many folks here on Enos and is still running. The gun has to have over 100 K through it. I found out that it had been sold on Enos last year to a guy, I had not seen the pistol in many years. Don will treat you the way smiths used to do work. Very reasonable. Check out the AWT web site. The open gun is my pistol and it is in Major 9 and it run flawless. Tell Don that Tommy Roupe sent you, it just may help you with your Para. I may have to shoot over a call and have him go through it. The previous owner did a trigger job on it that I like a lot. I have decided on VZ grips and a Dawson magwell. I mentioned before that I have a Caspian 9mm slide now with no sight cuts and is so tight I can't get it on all the way. All that is left is the CMORE and the barrel / comp and getting someone to fit it all together. I did email Don, he told me he charges more for Para builds. I think it has to do with the grip and extra work. It wasn't much, a couple hundred. Would you happen to know if he does slide milling? I would like to reduce the weight of the slide and add a slide racker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horhey232 Posted February 5, 2016 Author Share Posted February 5, 2016 So the Caspain 9mm slide I picked up seems to be set up for a bushing barrel system and I want to run a bull barrel system. Specifically the STI TruBore T-2 since it is all one piece. Is it possible to make this work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMontie Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Call Don Fraley at Advanced Weapons Technology 606-923-4564. Don built my Para many (30) years ago, and he can make a Para sing. My old Para has been shot many , many rounds, been sold through many folks here on Enos and is still running. The gun has to have over 100 K through it. I found out that it had been sold on Enos last year to a guy, I had not seen the pistol in many years. Don will treat you the way smiths used to do work. Very reasonable. Check out the AWT web site. The open gun is my pistol and it is in Major 9 and it run flawless. Tell Don that Tommy Roupe sent you, it just may help you with your Para. I may have to shoot over a call and have him go through it. The previous owner did a trigger job on it that I like a lot. I have decided on VZ grips and a Dawson magwell. I mentioned before that I have a Caspian 9mm slide now with no sight cuts and is so tight I can't get it on all the way. All that is left is the CMORE and the barrel / comp and getting someone to fit it all together. I did email Don, he told me he charges more for Para builds. I think it has to do with the grip and extra work. It wasn't much, a couple hundred. Would you happen to know if he does slide milling? I would like to reduce the weight of the slide and add a slide racker. I'm sure Don does, if not you might want to checkout Gary Natale at gansguns.com, I had a full custom build from him, took him a week and a half to turn a box of parts into a one off custom gun. His website has prices and various slide cuts. I don't know if he does para receivers, but slide cuts should be no problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troupe Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Don can build anything that you want. A good thing to note is that Don is OCD with the numbers , as in .0001. He is critical about doing things right. I just wish he was closer, I would move to the hills to work with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horhey232 Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 Call Don Fraley at Advanced Weapons Technology 606-923-4564. Don built my Para many (30) years ago, and he can make a Para sing. My old Para has been shot many , many rounds, been sold through many folks here on Enos and is still running. The gun has to have over 100 K through it. I found out that it had been sold on Enos last year to a guy, I had not seen the pistol in many years. Don will treat you the way smiths used to do work. Very reasonable. Check out the AWT web site. The open gun is my pistol and it is in Major 9 and it run flawless. Tell Don that Tommy Roupe sent you, it just may help you with your Para. I may have to shoot over a call and have him go through it. The previous owner did a trigger job on it that I like a lot. I have decided on VZ grips and a Dawson magwell. I mentioned before that I have a Caspian 9mm slide now with no sight cuts and is so tight I can't get it on all the way. All that is left is the CMORE and the barrel / comp and getting someone to fit it all together. I did email Don, he told me he charges more for Para builds. I think it has to do with the grip and extra work. It wasn't much, a couple hundred. Would you happen to know if he does slide milling? I would like to reduce the weight of the slide and add a slide racker. I'm sure Don does, if not you might want to checkout Gary Natale at gansguns.com, I had a full custom build from him, took him a week and a half to turn a box of parts into a one off custom gun. His website has prices and various slide cuts. I don't know if he does para receivers, but slide cuts should be no problem. I was originally going to go with Gans Guns but it's all over his website that he won't touch anything from California... :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horhey232 Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 Don can build anything that you want. A good thing to note is that Don is OCD with the numbers , as in .0001. He is critical about doing things right. I just wish he was closer, I would move to the hills to work with him. It's looking more and more likely I am going to go with Don. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troupe Posted February 14, 2016 Share Posted February 14, 2016 I spoke with him yesterday while he was at the shop. You won't go wrong. Again, tell him Tommy Roupe told you to call him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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