ES13Raven Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 How do the quickest shooters transition to targets while using cover? Say you have a wall (P1) and slice the pie to shoot T1, T2 and T3 - which are 2 yards apart from each other. Do the top guys (Vogel, Nils etc.) stay in one spot and increase their lean, or do they step with each new target? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarkeg Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 From what I've seen, the fastest guys lean, particularly if it's the last array in the stage. They know that unnecessary foot movement slows them down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 From taking a class with Vogel he says his goal is to move his feet as little as possible when he hits a shooting position. It's one reason why you often see these guys fall out of position at the end of a stage. They are so wound up and off balance trying to just turn and pivot at the hips and knees to avoid moving their feet. Next time you get to practice, shoot a modified version of stage 3, string 1 of the classifier. And with your timer and notebook you'll be able to see what is what for you at this time. A two yard target transition distance on a target 10 yards away is like what, 0.30? Can you re-position your feet in 0.30? Does it matter to your sights and your trigger finger what your feet are doing when you're stopped? Can you work the upper and lower half of your body independent of each other? Where is your personal balance of stability and control? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 If you hit the cover with a solid shooting position to start with there should be no need to shift the feet for the rest of the targets. Leaning outward will get you there, even at 20 yards+. A key is to have your outside foot planted as far out as it can legally go and in a rock solid plant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTDMFR Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) I'm still working through this stuff myself, but here are my thoughts: If you can shoot an entire array comfortably without moving your feet, then it's fastest to lean. If there's an array where it's impossible to shoot every target without moving your feet, then plan that ahead of time in your walkthrough, so you can move your feet as fast as you can without any hesitation when the time comes. It's a HUGE time waster when you think you can take a shot while leaning, and then you figure out mid-stream that you're going to have to move your feet after all. It helps to do some experimentation to see how large an angle you can comfortably sweep from cover. I found that when shooting around cover on my weak side, I can't lean very far and still remain stable, so I end up having to move my feet a lot sooner than when I'm shooting strong side. Edited October 27, 2015 by FTDMFR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v1911 Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 I had two shooters comment on my ballet skills last week. I didn't get the joke so they had to explain it to me. I didn't even realize that I was using my legs as a counterbalance. Not sure how long I have been doing that, but it must feel pretty comfortable since I don't notice it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Move your eyes to the target ahead of moving the gun and sights there and you'll get faster transitions just with that effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 I'm still working through this stuff myself, but here are my thoughts: If you can shoot an entire array comfortably without moving your feet, then it's fastest to lean. If there's an array where it's impossible to shoot every target without moving your feet, then plan that ahead of time in your walkthrough, so you can move your feet as fast as you can without any hesitation when the time comes. It's a HUGE time waster when you think you can take a shot while leaning, and then you figure out mid-stream that you're going to have to move your feet after all. It helps to do some experimentation to see how large an angle you can comfortably sweep from cover. I found that when shooting around cover on my weak side, I can't lean very far and still remain stable, so I end up having to move my feet a lot sooner than when I'm shooting strong side. This! ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTDMFR Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Move your eyes to the target ahead of moving the gun and sights there and you'll get faster transitions just with that effort. +1 One thing that helps me a lot is leaning far enough so that I can see both the current target and at least part of the next target, if it's possible to do so while still having 50% of my torso behind cover. It helps a ton with transitions, especially when shooting around a vision barrier. I used to just barely peek out from cover so that I could only see the -0 zone of the current target, but that made transitioning to the next target really slow (although that's probably closer to what how you'd use cover in the real world). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GARD72977 Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 You have to decide to transition fast and just do it. The positions will not be comfortable and your stance will be really bad. As long as the shots are close it does not matter. I only notice how uncomfortable it is in dry fire. In match it is so fast you will never notice. When you start pushing the speed your body will work out the movement on its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forrest Halley Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 If you are neutralizing the targets as you go...essentially you can fall out of the position, but the can of worms is: do you get a cover call if you miss one of your hits on a target? Technically, it was not neutralized prior to you exposing too much of thyself to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racknrider Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 As long as you fire the required number of rounds at a target it is considered engaged. Shots fired are what counts, not hits on target. No PE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v1911 Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 As long as no shots were fired until you got back into cover, no finger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 I think you should get the penalty if you break cover regardless if you fire a shot or not. The real bad guys aren't going to stop shooting at you just because you slip out of behind cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v1911 Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 (edited) I think you should get the penalty if you break cover regardless if you fire a shot or not. The real bad guys aren't going to stop shooting at you just because you slip out of behind cover. And their shouldn't be a timer either because the police aren't going ask what your splits were or how long it took you to incapacitate the threats. It's a game. Can we refrain from trying to compare it to real life? Despite what the founders intent is/was, it's a game with guns, a timer and rules to abide by. Edited December 6, 2015 by v1911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ES13Raven Posted December 7, 2015 Author Share Posted December 7, 2015 Can we refrain from trying to compare it to real life? Despite what the founders intent is/was, it's a game with guns, a timer and rules to abide by. I think people will continue to do that, because it is one of the Fundamental Principles in the rule book: 1.1.5 Provide shooters with practical and realistic courses of fire, and test skills that could be required to survive life-threatening encounters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsg Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Beware of your extreme leans. Yes leaning is much faster than moving your feet but your accuracy may suffer severely as your position becomes more awkward and as your sight picture rotates with the lean. Practice the lean so your brain is ready for it or suffer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diver60540 Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Roger That. Doing less is always faster. Usually more accurate too, for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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