DA practice for better SA control

[JFD]

This may be one of those topics that gets me pegged as an idiot, but what the heck...

While practicing shooting my S&W 686 for an unaffilated IDPA type match, I shot around 700 rounds firing double action only since I stink in this mode of fire.  After quite a bit of shooting I could finally place a pair of "A" hits on the target at 15 yards in a somewhat regular manner.

At my next IDPA match (I've sinced switched over to USPSA) I swear my trigger control seemed much better.  I contribute this to the theory that double action fire really highlights any errors in trigger work, and my earlier practice must have smoothed out some of the errors that would result in hits outside of the "A" zone.  Maybe trigger control isn't the best term, as the biggest improvement seems to be the ability to hold the pistol on target better on multiple shots.  My occasional wild shots also seem to be fewer.

Does this makes sense?  I normally practice 2 or 3 times per week and am considering using the revolver for some of these sessions.  

I'm at the point now where I still have little idea what I'm doing, so improvement is difficult.  All I know is the buzzer sounds and I shoot the stage roughly the same way I planned on shooting it.  I call my shots and try to use this Index thing (only here did I find out there's a name for it), but my only big advance of late is to realize that 8 round mags in L-10 are killing me.  What I'd hate to do is start practicing occasionally with a revolver only to find out that somehow I'm screwing myself up.

I've already had the experience of changing my practice sessions with the end result being nothing more than a series of steps backwards.

[Flexmoney]

Here are some of my observations.  They may, or may not, mean anything.

I think that shoting revolver in double-action forces me to focus on the sights.  My focus should be on the front sight anyway.  But, the double-action really shows this to me.

I have been working with a few different guns lately.  doing so has helped me in many ways.  But, I didn't transition back to my main match gun soon enough.  In fact, just before the last match, I tried some draws while in the safe area.  My grip was 100%, neither was my index.  That was a factor in my match.  I know it was a factor in my classifier...I ended up chasing the grip and scoring a couple mikes.

[vluc]

Makes sense to me as I see the same thing.  Shot a SIG 226 last year in production (USPSA) and it and a 225 in IDPA.  I notice that after dry fire practice - or at the indoor range where I also do DA only practice - that subsequent SA shots are a whole lot easier.

While I have since switched to a Glock for USPSA, I still shoot the SIG's in IDPA and continue to practice the way you have described.

Perception is reality!  

[Ron Ankeny]

JFD:

I used to shoot double action only revolvers in PPC and NRA Action Pistol years ago. I made Master in PPC and did quite well. I quit shooting about 10 years ago, then started up two years ago in IDPA and USPSA in an effort to learn how to shoot a 1911 (2011) style pistol.

I could ramble on for hours about shooting a double action revolver because that is (was) my first love, but I don't know that it would serve any useful purpose.

Have you considered this? Perhaps what you experienced when you switched was an increased awareness of the basic shooting fundamentals. When I switch platforms I seem to pay closer attention to what I am doing as I become familiar with the gun. Suppose a guy (or gal) normally shoots a 2011 with a 2.5 pound trigger. If you pick up a 1911 with a 4.5 lb trigger and prepare for an IDPA match you will probably find yourself having better visual skills while you are learning the different trigger and waiting for the shot to break. When you switch back, you may find that you have better trigger control on your 2011 because it seems like you have come home to an old friend. Just a thought.

[JFD]

Thanks guys.  Seems like I came up with a decent idea for a change, even if not very original.

Being forced to focus on fundamentals sums up my thoughts on the matter quite well and takes up a lot less space.

Gives me a chance to try out some of these new .358 bullets I've been casting.

[bountyhunter]

I stopped shooting my 686 in SA mode altogether when I was only speed shooting (DA of course).  When I went back to SA for bullseye, I sucked at it.  I had to re-learn the SA gentle pull.  Now I shoot a league with half slow fire (I use SA) and half rapid fire (DA).  I use two different grips and pulls altogether to maximize scores.

For SA, I use a "cradle" grip where the bottom of the trigger guard rests between the first and second knuckle of my left hand (faced up).  I also use less grip pressure.  My right hand is rotated slightly to put the trigger at the very end of the finger tip.  The DA grip and pull is pretty much standard.  

Having two different setups for SA and DA allows my brain to completely switch gears and shoot each way better.

[benos]

I've always felt the "non-take-it-for-granted" long stroke of the DA revolver to be beneficial for Followthrough.

be

[Duane Thomas]

I'm a firm believer that practicing with a DA revolver will make you a better SA auto pistol shooter. When we fire an SA auto, because of the very short, light nature of the trigger pulls there is a very real tendency to fire individual shots....no matter how fast we're firing, mentally it's still one shot at a time. But with a DA revolver because of the long, rolling nature of the trigger pulls there is much more a tendency to fire a SERIES of shots, if you know what I mean, to be much more flowing and smooth and CONTINUOUS in our trigger manipulation.

Because it takes so long, relatively speaking to stroke a DA trigger, if you're going to have fast splits you've got to keep your finger moving, back and forth like a little metronome, it never really stops.  As you're transitioning betwen targets you have to begin pulling the trigger while the gun is still moving to the next A-box. This all forces you to mentally and emotionally commit to the next shot before it happens, you've got to make the maximum possible use of available time, to cut out any "dead time."  Then, when you go back to the SA auto, if you can carry that DA revolver experience with you, and instead of treating the SA auto like an SA auto, instead treat it like a REALLY short DA, you might just find you're smoother and more accurate and faster, too.

[bird]

Followthrough.

That is what the DA trigger makes you do, along with watching that the sights don'tmove during that

l o n g  

pull.

There was an article in the latest FS magazine that addresses this with some great tips from Angus.

SA or DA I have always had a "reaching for the trigger" attitude that a DA revolver gives you.

I have seen really good wheelgun shooters roll that DA trigger and shoot pretty damn fast..

Wow!!!

Live in the moment

[Rich Bagoly]

"As you're transitioning betwen targets you have to begin pulling the trigger while the gun is still moving to the next A-box."

I have been waiting for someone to write this.  I was begining to believe it would have to be me.

Keep moving the front sight into the A-zone.  Don't stop while you work the trigger.  Don't stop when it gets there.  Don't stop when the gun goes bang, unless you are reloading, or hauling ass to the next position.  

(Edited by Rich Bagoly at 8:02 pm on May 11, 2002)

[Million Mom]

If the DA pull was the only difference, I might agree with you, but since the other diffences in between the revolver and the 1911 are so glaring, I have to say, NO. To deliberately teach yourself to not concern yourself with disengaging the safety, to have such a different "feel", etc, seems to be only a distraction.

[Duane Thomas]

Um, no. If you shoot the 1911 with an "IPSC style" straight thumbs grip - and you should - you don't have to "concern yourself with disengaging the safety." The way you grip the gun disengages the safety, with no conscious thought on your part, when the hands meet.

I used to shoot thumb-over-thumb with a 1911. I also didn't need to "concern myself with disengaging the safety" with that technique, either. If we can believe exercise physiologists, it requries from 3,000 to 5,000 correct repetitions of a particular action before it becomes an unconscious reaction. I practiced with a 1911 for six months before I started carrying the gun. By that time I couldn't draw the gun to eye level WITHOUT taking off the safety. It just happened automatically - pun intended.

[38supPat]

Oddly enough, I always found I shot better groups, or more accurately in general, by shooting a revolver DA only, I could never seem to do as well if I tried to shoot it SA. I guess I shot enough PPC, and some Action Pistol, to the point where i was more used to it. But I do find it keeps you 'in' the sights longer and my focus is better on  the relationship of FS/RS/trigger.

[Million Mom]

I want that safety to disengage the instant that the gun starts on its forward journey.  I doesn't take a kid anything like 5000 steps to be able to walk. There's going to be some people who learn something just fine, in 1/10th the time that others need, and some are never going to learn it at all. It sure never took me anything like 5000, (or the 3000 reps that I believe I've seen you qhote in the magazines) to make my blocking, kicking or striking reflexive in tkd.  Also, there are still the other issues of differences in "feel', having to THINK about reload-timing with the revolver, line of recoil,  letting that long reset of the trigger take place, etc. Basically, there's no GOOD reason to bother with the revolver at all, now that Kahr's PM compact polymer gun makes the .38 snubs look so bad, as far as concealment in a pants pocket, controlability, power, ammo capacity, reload speed, ease of carrying spare ammo, etc.

[38supPat]

The later the safety comes off the better, I only take it off in the last 4-5" of movement from the draw, where as DT points out it comes off naturally.. no point going home from a match early 'cuz you got impatient with safety.

[Duane Thomas]

"I want that safety to disengage the instant that the gun starts on its forward journey."

That depends of your definition of "on its forward journey." If by that you mean when I've got both hands on the gun, it's level with the target, sights aligned and I'm pushing it out at the target, then I agree. But it any event, that's not what we were discussing. You stated that practice with a DA revolver would distract a shooter from concentrating on disengaging the thumb safety during the draw of an SA auto. I'm pointing out that with decent technique - or even non-decent, thumb-over-thumb technique, if you practice enough - that's a non-issue. AAMOF you don't want to be thinking about disengaging the safety. Nor, if you're well-practiced, will you need to. It will happen without conscious thought.

"I doesn't take a kid anything like 5000 steps to be able to walk. There's going to be some people who learn something just fine, in 1/10th the time that others need, and some are never going to learn it at all."

No argument there. I'm just repeating what I've read. I do kind of wonder where they came up with that 3,000 - 5,000 reps thing, myself. Maybe it's an average. I'm sure there are people, both slow and fast learners, who won't fit into that number range.

"Also, there are still the other issues of differences in "feel', having to THINK about reload-timing with the revolver, line of recoil,  letting that long reset of the trigger take place, etc."

Again, with enough practice, you're not going to be thinking about doing anything. That's the goal, to get so good, so well-practiced, at doing something - whatever it may be - that your subconscious mind directs your body - much more effectively BTW. Practicing DA shooting with a revolver just gives your subconcious a different way to think of manipulating the trigger, continuous motion, prepping the trigger between targets, etc., instead of firing a sequence of individual shots.

(Edited by Duane Thomas at 5:39 pm on Dec. 17, 2002)

[Deaf Smith]

---

Quote: from Million Mom on 5:02 pm on Dec. 17, 2002

I want that safety to disengage the instant that the gun starts on its forward journey.  I doesn't take a kid anything like 5000 steps to be able to walk. There's going to be some people who learn something just fine, in 1/10th the time that others need, and some are never going to learn it at all. It sure never took me anything like 5000, (or the 3000 reps that I believe I've seen you qhote in the magazines) to make my blocking, kicking or striking reflexive in tkd.  Also, there are still the other issues of differences in "feel', having to THINK about reload-timing with the revolver, line of recoil,  letting that long reset of the trigger take place, etc. Basically, there's no GOOD reason to bother with the revolver at all, now that Kahr's PM compact polymer gun makes the .38 snubs look so bad, as far as concealment in a pants pocket, controlability, power, ammo capacity, reload speed, ease of carrying spare ammo, etc.

---

Well, Gunkid, I see you are starting to use the HIGH CAPS again. When will you start using 'noone'.

As for DA or SA, I see no reason to not learn both. You see, there is this law of 'diminishing returns'. That is, the more you practice at one thing the less the improvement for the amount of time used. So, over  a period of time you will practice mightily and gain little. So, when that time comes, practice something else. Like DA shooting.

And here is another gem. There is no guarantee you will have a SA when you need it. So, if defense is what you are so orientated for, it would seem logical to learn most action types and be very good with them.

Deaf

[Duane Thomas]

This is drifting a bit, and might be appropriate in the Shooting Different Guns thread, but:

There was a time when I regularly practiced with several different guns, all with different trigger actions: DA auto (SIG P228), SA auto (1911 .45), Safe Action (Glock 19), even the occasional DA revolver. And what struck me the most, when working out with those different guns, was just how little difference there was in firing any of them. It doesn't matter what gun, all you do it put your finger on the trigger, apply pressure until the shot breaks, let the trigger reset, do it again. Sure, the amount of travel before the trigger broke varied, the length of the reset....but still I could pick up any of them, apply the fundamentals of trigger control, and do just fine. No big deal.

[Jake Di Vita]

I find that the trigger is no problem when switching between guns, but with me, the different platforms throw my index off. Say if I was dry-firing with a Glock all week and suddenly went to the Beretta, my index would be different. In this particular example the front sight on my Beretta was always held way low and out of sight when I drew.

[Deaf Smith]

TheItlianStalion,

And that is why I prefer a good sight picture when shooting if at all possible. The different platforms make unsighted fire 'iffy' except for your most favorite guns. I have found Smith revolvers I have to cock my wrist a bit downward for unsighted fire, Colt revolvers I have to cock the wrist upwards, 1911s have their own wrist settings! But sighted fire is much easier to master from gun to gun.

If one will have any problem, it will be the DA to SA transition one will encounter with such as Smith, Sig, Beretta, and such SA/DA autos. But even that is not all that difficult.

Thing is, in IDPA and IPSC one usually have several targets, so unsighted fire will actually slow you down as you will have to shift from it to sighted fire for the longer shots, so no reason to even use it.

Deaf

[Million Mom]

So if you don't own any DA guns, one is just suddenly going to appear when you need one, just in the nick of time? :-) You truly manage to deceive yourself so badly that you actually believe this? Whatever happened to the KISS principle?

[38supPat]

Obviously I am not as irritating as you, if ever and when ever I have gone to a match without a gun, be it PPC, IPSC, Bullseye etc, I always have people offering to let me use their gun. And yes I have borrowed revolvers to shoot IPSC when the opportunity has arisen. Its great fun and a great test of ability to see if you can adapt to a different gun. I have even won stages (even beat Jojo on a steel stage) with borrowed gun and gear when my own crapped out.

So yes sometimes they do suddenly appear 'just in the nick of time' and saved my match

[Deaf Smith]

Being able to shoot several types of common guns (rifle, shotgun, or pistol) has the advantage that if your gun breaks, or lost, or stolden, and all you can find is a DA or DAO or SA or pump/lever/auto/breakopen/etc... it will be no great handicap.

Kind of like learning motorcycles, standard transmissions, double clutch, driving tractors (John Deere makes both 'automatic' transmissions and standard.) One would do well to have a broad experience base. Never know when it may come in handy.

As for the KISS principle, it only goes so far.

[Duane Thomas]

My reply when someone says, "Keep It Simple Stupid" is always, "That works really well....if you happen to be stupid."

(Edited by Duane Thomas at 3:19 pm on Dec. 19, 2002)

[FayettevilleFatKid]

My two cents isn't even worth that much but...I have found that my shooting ability has greatly increased, due to, I believe, recently doing a lot of shooting with DA/SA autos(which I hate).  My trigger control is much better now, with any kind of gun, than it was before as a DA trigger is definitely the hardest to properly manipulate, to me at least.  It was brought home to me by an old ISU/Bullseye/PPC shooter that sight focus/picture, index, stance, etc doesn't mean anything if you are slapping the trigger so bad that you think all of your guns are shooting low left.  I know before there were many times at matches I would shoot at steel and people were screaming "front sight, front sight!!".  My front sight was where it was supposed to be(as far as I could see) and I couldn't figure it out, until I realized that I was crushing the trigger and the front sight was no longer where it was supposed to be when the gun actually fired...