DA/SA Production gun at Half Cock holstered with safety off = DQ?

[motosapiens]

good lord, so what about the many people (not me) who manually decock their cz's using the strong hand thumb? DQ? or would that make me a rules nazi? I mean Amidon specifically stated 'weak hand'.

oh the humanitiez!

Mr Amidon does appear to be saying the 'exception' language is not really needed, and this situation is covered under the old rules since the manipulation of the trigger occurs 'after loading'.

Edited August 8, 2015 by motosapiens

[motosapiens]

How about the RO doesn't start the shooter until they are in the proper hammer fully down condition.

Once the gun is loaded and holstered, at half cock, it's a D.Q.

Too many R.O.'s are lax on rules like this, while others are strict, how do you have a fair match when there are officials not following the rules?

That appears to be a made-up rule, for the reasons cited at length above.

Too many RO's are pretending to be strict, but really just making up their own rules. How do you have a fair match when there are officials making up rules not in the rulebook?

[motosapiens]

Truly amazing.

C'mon Gary, you can do better than that. You are one of the most experienced and knowledgeable people that posts here, and I give a lot of weight to your opinons. I would love to hear your understanding of both of these topics, and learn from your experience:

a) whether manually decocking a decocker model gun is a dq (and why)

whether manually decocking a non-decocker to half-cock and holstering is a dq (and why).

Edited August 8, 2015 by motosapiens

[Nik Habicht]

What defines a rules NAZI? Following rules to the letter does not make an RO a NAZI.

making up rules makes an RO a nazi.

For example, dq-ing someone for manually decocking a non-decocker cz. there appears to be nothing in the rules to support that dq, but it was still deemed necessary to put a clarification in there. Why? I suspect rules nazis making up rules.

Your suspicion is cute but unfounded.......

If you consider the rulebook in its entirety, by reading all of the rules relevant to placing a finger on the trigger, you'll see that it's really only allowed when you're either aiming or shooting at targets. (Yep -- there's an allowance for point shooting) See rules 10.5.8, 10.5.9, 10.5.10, and 8.5.1.

Back in the days of only Open and Limited -- this was rarely a concern -- because virtually no one needed to activate a trigger to lower the hammer on a gun -- they were either shooting cocked and locked, or shooting a Glock or a DA/SA Semiauto that was equipped with a decocker or a safety. When I started in 2001, that was an accepted practice -- that no one who had a decocker available used anything else to decock a gun at Load and Make Ready. (Yep -- it used to be LAMR before it was shortened a few years ago.

Along comes Production, and all of a sudden there's a portion of the field that needs to decock guns that do not have a decocking lever. That's how the second sentence in 10.5.9 came about -- because DNROI and the board realized they needed to create an exemption so that competitors could comply with divisional requirements without being disqualified. (Someone remembered that wheelmen shooters like to check their moon clips so that was added as well when the 2008 update hit.

Now -- why is decocting with the trigger a safety concern? It can be done safely with the gun pointed downrange -- and in case the gun goes off, it's really no different from an aimed shot fired during the course of fire; we have rules to deal with the situation. Then again, I see newer competitors who need to rotate their guns toward the 180 to get it done -- so there's some concern there if a thumb slips off the hammer....

BTW -- remember when I spoke of considering the rulebook as a whole? Look at the DQ rule for a shot fired while Loading, Reloading or Unloading (10.4.3) and what the implications are when you consider the referenced rules of 8.3.1 and 8.3.7.

10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.1 and Rule 8.3.7.

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and hearing protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the specified start position. The Range Officer will not proceed with any further range commands until the competitor is still and is in the correct start position.

So it would appear that the appendix definition of loading isn't the end-all definition of when loading is completed.....

Considering the rules in this manner -- which by the way is the way the material was presented to me at least twice during Level 1 seminars by NROI RMIs -- does not make one a "Rules Nazi."

[Nik Habicht]

On the topic of holstering a gun with the hammer at half-cock and the safety not applied, here are the applicable rules:

10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions:

10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied.

10.5.11.2 A double action or selective action pistol with the hammer cocked and the safety not applied.

10.5.11.3 A revolver with the hammer cocked.

All these conditions apply the entire time the handgun is in the holster. See 8.1.2.4

OK -- that seems simple and plain English enough even for me, and English is my second language.....

8.1.2.4 With respect to Rules 8.1.2.1 and 8.1.2.3, the term “safety” means the primary visible safety lever on the handgun (e.g. the thumb safety on a “1911” genre handgun). In the event of doubt, the Range Master is the final authority on this matter. This safety must be on while the firearm is loaded in the holster or loaded in any other location stated in the WSB (e.g.: table start, in a drawer, etc). in order to be in compliance with 10.5.11

So, for some classes of firearms -- the primary safety needs to be on the entire time the gun is loaded in the holster, or loaded in any other location stated in the WSB, in order to avoid a DQ with respect to 10.5.11

So let's look at those:

8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.

8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

If we're considering a CZ-75b -- it's hard too argue that it fits the definition of a Selective Action -- since it's capable of starting from either hammer down, safety off or cocked and locked. Now -- what's that wording in the rule? Chamber loaded with hammer fully down; it says nothing about chamber loaded with hammer at half cock -- that's why it's a DQ for a selective action auto. Notice how that's different from the language in 8.1.2.2, which refers to traditional DA/SA autoloaders.

[Nik Habicht]

Truly amazing.

C'mon Gary, you can do better than that. You are one of the most experienced and knowledgeable people that posts here, and I give a lot of weight to your opinons. I would love to hear your understanding of both of these topics, and learn from your experience:

a) whether manually decocking a decocker model gun is a dq (and why)

whether manually decocking a non-decocker to half-cock and holstering is a dq (and why).

I think Gary was suggesting that we break out the rulebook -- which is nicely annotated, so when you read 10.5.11 it even refers you 8.1.2.4, which in turn refers you to 8.1.2.1 and 8.1.2.3....

[d_striker]

On the topic of holstering a gun with the hammer at half-cock and the safety not applied, here are the applicable rules:

10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions:

10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied.

10.5.11.2 A double action or selective action pistol with the hammer cocked and the safety not applied.

10.5.11.3 A revolver with the hammer cocked.

All these conditions apply the entire time the handgun is in the holster. See 8.1.2.4

OK -- that seems simple and plain English enough even for me, and English is my second language.....

8.1.2.4 With respect to Rules 8.1.2.1 and 8.1.2.3, the term “safety” means the primary visible safety lever on the handgun (e.g. the thumb safety on a “1911” genre handgun). In the event of doubt, the Range Master is the final authority on this matter. This safety must be on while the firearm is loaded in the holster or loaded in any other location stated in the WSB (e.g.: table start, in a drawer, etc). in order to be in compliance with 10.5.11

So, for some classes of firearms -- the primary safety needs to be on the entire time the gun is loaded in the holster, or loaded in any other location stated in the WSB, in order to avoid a DQ with respect to 10.5.11

So let's look at those:

8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:

8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.

8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked.

8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

If we're considering a CZ-75b -- it's hard too argue that it fits the definition of a Selective Action -- since it's capable of starting from either hammer down, safety off or cocked and locked. Now -- what's that wording in the rule? Chamber loaded with hammer fully down; it says nothing about chamber loaded with hammer at half cock -- that's why it's a DQ for a selective action auto. Notice how that's different from the language in 8.1.2.2, which refers to traditional DA/SA autoloaders.

I agree with this logic.

[Gary Stevens]

Actually I was referring to how we can make such a crap storm out of anything.

If you have a de cocker use it, holster, and assume the start position.

If you don't have a de cocker, manually lower the hammer all the way down, per the rules, holster, and assume the start position.

The rules are clear, and outline both procedures. All this other stuff makes my head hurt.

Life is short. Have fun, be safe, and quit trying to find fly poop in the pepper.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Gary Stevens

[Nik Habicht]

Actually I was referring to how we can make such a crap storm out of anything.

If you have a de cocker use it, holster, and assume the start position.

If you don't have a de cocker, manually lower the hammer all the way down, per the rules, holster, and assume the start position.

The rules are clear, and outline both procedures. All this other stuff makes my head hurt.

Life is short. Have fun, be safe, and quit trying to find fly poop in the pepper.

Sorry Gary -- didn't mean to speak for you.....

[Gary Stevens]

Anytime Nik.

[motosapiens]

Considering the rules in this manner -- which by the way is the way the material was presented to me at least twice during Level 1 seminars by NROI RMIs -- does not make one a "Rules Nazi."

It still appears to me that you are having to infer extra unwritten information to come to your conclusion, which makes it more of a tribal tradition than a rule, at least according to my reading.

According to John Amidon's cut n pasted post above, the exception language is not actually necessary, so I think it's a mistake to think that it means anything more than a clarification for people that didn't understand the previous rules the way Mr Amidon clearly explained them.

For sure, it makes sense to me to use the decocker if you have one, and not to if you don't, but I think correction rather than DQ is the right response to either of the situations I outlined above. If someone were to call a dq on either situation, I would certainly recommend an arbitration (pending any definitive ruling from Troy).

[motosapiens]

If we're considering a CZ-75b -- it's hard too argue that it fits the definition of a Selective Action -- since it's capable of starting from either hammer down, safety off or cocked and locked. Now -- what's that wording in the rule? Chamber loaded with hammer fully down; it says nothing about chamber loaded with hammer at half cock -- that's why it's a DQ for a selective action auto. Notice how that's different from the language in 8.1.2.2, which refers to traditional DA/SA autoloaders.

You appear to be saying that holstering a pistol not in the ready condition is a dq, when the rules say holstering a selective action pistol with the hammer cocked is a dq. By that logic, holstering a pistol without a round in the chamber would also be a dq, and that makes about as much sense as dq-ing someone for having the gun at half-cock. Using the same method of logic you applied earlier (looking at other rules and guessing what people really meant but didn't write down), if it's safe for a decocker gun to be at half-cock, how can it be unsafe for non-decocker gun to be at half-cock? I'm all for applying the rules, but I think it violates the spirit of the rules to use twisted logic to dq someone for something that is *clearly* not unsafe.

I've been trying to look at it from all sides, and while I respect your experience and your knowledge, I am unable to agree with you on this point. The rules as written seem very clear to me (pending any clarification from DNROI).

However, since it appears that some RO's may enforce something different than others, it would behoove shooters to not leave any room for subjectivity, so as to save themselves an arbitration.

[twodownzero]

It appears you've put your finger on the problem--the rules provide no definition of "cocked."

By that logic, if I holster my 1911 half cocked with the safety off, is it a DQ?

Answer, yes, 10.5.11.1. Now ask yourself if there's any meaningful difference between holstering a DA/SA handgun with the hammer half cocked and the safety off, and doing the same thing with a single action handgun. There isn't. But one rule says hammer cocked 10.5.11.2, and the other doesn't. If the word "cocked" is unimportant, it should be removed, or 10.5.11.2 should be changed to suggest that holstering a handgun in anything other than the safe condition for single action handguns or with the hammer fully down, decocker model CZs excepted.

Does your answer depend if the half cock notch works correctly or not? Obviously not given the plain language, but treating a DA/SA competitor different than a SA competitor in this instance makes no sense. A DA/SA gun is also not a SA gun, so 10.5.11.1 cannot apply to the CZ guy who holsters his shootin' iron at half cock with the safety off.

How about the RO doesn't start the shooter until they are in the proper hammer fully down condition.

An RO cannot start a shooter at all if he or she has DQed themselves by unsafe gun handling, which is the question presented. Also, coaching is not allowed except under specific circumstances, and if it wasn't unsafe gun handling to have their gun at half cock, then the RO would have to start them and allow the competitor to bump himself to open by not complying with the division requirements.

i'm guessing that exception is to pacify overzealous rules nazis that get a woodman from dq-ing people for stuff that is not unsafe.

Be careful with that comment. Plenty of people break the 180 just slightly and don't endanger anyone. Such a move isn't unsafe. But it's a DQ every single time. Our rules contemplate all sorts of places (finger on the trigger at the wrong time, while facing downrange, for example) where someone MUST be DQed even though he or she didn't do anything unsafe.

See above.

Please explain to me with only facts why the exception exists then? It goes both ways.

Actually it doesn't. While it's a usual way to read a rule to say that no language can be superfluous, the exception can simply be there to add clarity, even if it doesn't make a substantive difference. In other words, it's not an "exception" even if it says it is--it's simply clarifying how it applies.

[Poppa Bear]

I tend to agree with Moto. John's Front Site statements say that half cocked and fully cocked are not the same thing, and we have already established that you are allowed to use the trigger to lower the hammer without being DQ'ed.

The area I have a problem with as does Moto is that a CZ or other varients like it ie "Selective Action" can be fired either DA or SA so having the hammer fully down or at the half cock notch will still allow the gun to be fired by simply squeezing the trigger.

Holstering a loaded SA gun with the hammer at half cock is stupid and a DQ because the rule does not allow for lowering the hammer on a loaded SA pistol. It does allow for lowering the hammer on a SA/DA Selective Action pistol. So the question really is:

Is holstering a non-decocker equipped Selective Action pistol with the hammer at the half cock position a DQ or something that needs to be corrected at the line with the shooter lowering the hammer to the fully down position. Whether the hammer falls and the gun discharges while lowering it from fully cocked or half cocked the ruling is the same, it is a DQ.

[motosapiens]

It appears you've put your finger on the problem--the rules provide no definition of "cocked."

By that logic, if I holster my 1911 half cocked with the safety off, is it a DQ?

Answer, yes, 10.5.11.1. Now ask yourself if there's any meaningful difference between holstering a DA/SA handgun with the hammer half cocked and the safety off, and doing the same thing with a single action handgun. There isn't. But one rule says hammer cocked 10.5.11.2, and the other doesn't.

imho, that's a pretty meaningful difference. the reason (imho) is because for the DA gun at half-cock to fire, the hammer has to be raised (with the trigger) and then released, just like it does with the hammer fully down.

if you holster a loaded 1911 without the safety applied, it's a dq. period. cocked, half-cock, hammer down, doesn't matter. That's the rule.

OTOH, if you holster a loaded cz without the safety applied and the hammer is *not* cocked, it should not be a dq, although some folks would like to equate half-cocked and cocked for certain models of guns and not for others.

Honestly, I find this an interesting discussion, but not too worrisome. If someone gets dq'd for something I think is unreasonable, it won't be me, and it won't be the first time a non-righteous (imho) dq has been handed out. I'm more concerned that the proper start position is enforced, so when I see a non-decocker cz at half-cock, I ask the shooter to put his gun in the appropriate start position.

I'd like to apologize for the using the inflammatory term 'rules nazi' earlier, because I know many people who pride themselves on being strict and consistent take offense to it. I personally intended it for people that are strict but incorrect. There is absolutely nothing wrong with correctly enforcing rules by the book.

Fwiw, I think NIk's logic is not unreasonable.... Perhaps this is one of those gray areas that needs to be ironed out eventually so that experienced reasonable people won't be able to look at all sides of the discussion and come to opposing conclusions.

Edited August 9, 2015 by motosapiens

[Nik Habicht]

We probably need a definition of cocked in the next rulebook -- it might help clarify the situation. (Just because I think I understand it after 14 years in the sport and several RO classes, doesn't mean that everyone else is on the same page -- and that's ideally what we want.)

As for differences between gun designs -- I have no issues there. I've owned guns with decockers and one of them actually moved the hammer back slightly if you applied the safety, because as part of the safety going on, a firing pin shield slid between the hammer and the firing pin. (S&W 910). That's the way that design was meant to work. A decocked Sig 228 doesn't have the hammer sitting as far forward as it does when the hammer strikes the firing pin -- but those hammer positions are correctly addressed by rule......

For the other action types -- be they single or selective action -- for me the definition of a cocked hammer is pretty simple: If the hammer isn't all the way down, it's cocked -- therefore the safety needs to be on before it's holstered.....

Last but not least a CZ-75b is selective action; an S&W 3 or 4 digit auto or a Sig 22x series is a traditional SA/DA auto. The CZ 85 for instance appears to be a traditional SA/DA auto -- no ability to carry cocked and locked -- so if the hammer's back, and the safety's not applied when it's holstered, that would seem to be a match DQ.

[motosapiens]

For the other action types -- be they single or selective action -- for me the definition of a cocked hammer is pretty simple: If the hammer isn't all the way down, it's cocked -- therefore the safety needs to be on before it's holstered.....

So you are saying that you think 'cocked' and 'half-cocked' are the same? Wouldn't they be the same for a decocker model too then? the hammer is in the same place whether it's a safety or decocker.

Last but not least a CZ-75b is selective action; an S&W 3 or 4 digit auto or a Sig 22x series is a traditional SA/DA auto. The CZ 85 for instance appears to be a traditional SA/DA auto -- no ability to carry cocked and locked -- so if the hammer's back, and the safety's not applied when it's holstered, that would seem to be a match DQ.

I think you may be a little confused about the guns. the 75b and 85 are the same in terms of safety and trigger. Both can be carried cocked and locked, or with the hammer at halfcock or fully down with the safety off. The 85 has ambi-safeties tho.

The 75BD and sp01 tactical and P01 are decocker equipped models, with no safety. They are typically carried at half-cock (decocked position), but can also be manually decocked.

For a decocker model, the start position is with the hammer at the decocked position (half-cock). That doesn't seem like it squares with your definition that equates "cocked" with "not fully down".

[d_striker]

I can see it both ways on whether holstering at half cock is considered a DQ'able offense. I think that whichever side of the line you stand on, there was some subjective reasoning/interpretation that got you there.

Now that Nationals is over, hopefully Troy provides clarification to this matter.

Edited August 10, 2015 by d_striker

[Nik Habicht]

For the other action types -- be they single or selective action -- for me the definition of a cocked hammer is pretty simple: If the hammer isn't all the way down, it's cocked -- therefore the safety needs to be on before it's holstered.....

So you are saying that you think 'cocked' and 'half-cocked' are the same? Wouldn't they be the same for a decocker model too then? the hammer is in the same place whether it's a safety or decocker.

Last but not least a CZ-75b is selective action; an S&W 3 or 4 digit auto or a Sig 22x series is a traditional SA/DA auto. The CZ 85 for instance appears to be a traditional SA/DA auto -- no ability to carry cocked and locked -- so if the hammer's back, and the safety's not applied when it's holstered, that would seem to be a match DQ.

I think you may be a little confused about the guns. the 75b and 85 are the same in terms of safety and trigger. Both can be carried cocked and locked, or with the hammer at halfcock or fully down with the safety off. The 85 has ambi-safeties tho.

The 75BD and sp01 tactical and P01 are decocker equipped models, with no safety. They are typically carried at half-cock (decocked position), but can also be manually decocked.

For a decocker model, the start position is with the hammer at the decocked position (half-cock). That doesn't seem like it squares with your definition that equates "cocked" with "not fully down".

It's entirely possible that I'm confused about CZ models -- though their owner's manuals are what led to the confusion. The 85 owner's manual suggests it's a decocker only gun, with no ability to apply a manual safety. On rereading it, yep you're right I was thinking of an 85BD -- the only selective action auto in the 85 model line up unless I'm missing something else....

I guess you didn't read the rules and don't understand that selective action guns and traditional DA/SA autos are treated differently.....

I'm not making the distinction -- the rules are. For a traditional DA/SA auto with a decocker the hammer goes wherever the decocker places it -- and that's fine.

A single action or selective action auto is not the same thing -- so hammer back requires the safety to be applied before holstering to avoid a DQ.....

No dichotomy here -- unless you'd like to pursue a rules change. In that case I suggest an e-mail to your AD, the President and DNROI......

[jstagn]

So, to sum up. At the load make ready command, I load my CZ accu-shadow, rack the slide which cocks the hammer, lower the hammer with my weak hand/finger ALL THE WAY (no half cock) while pressing the trigger with my strong hand, and then holster or do I have to manually put the thumb safety on as you would with a 1911sa????

[motosapiens]

I guess you didn't read the rules and don't understand that selective action guns and traditional DA/SA autos are treated differently.....

I'm not making the distinction -- the rules are. For a traditional DA/SA auto with a decocker the hammer goes wherever the decocker places it -- and that's fine.

A single action or selective action auto is not the same thing -- so hammer back requires the safety to be applied before holstering to avoid a DQ.....

No dichotomy here -- unless you'd like to pursue a rules change. In that case I suggest an e-mail to your AD, the President and DNROI......

I hate to fall for your snarkiness, but I guess you didn't read the rules and don't understand that the rules say 'cocked', not 'hammer back'. IMHO, neither of those things is the same at half-cock, but one of them is much more clearly not the same.

[motosapiens]

So, to sum up. At the load make ready command, I load my CZ accu-shadow, rack the slide which cocks the hammer, lower the hammer with my weak hand/finger ALL THE WAY (no half cock) while pressing the trigger with my strong hand, and then holster or do I have to manually put the thumb safety on as you would with a 1911sa????

No need to put the thumb safety on once the hmmer is down.

[Nik Habicht]

I guess you didn't read the rules and don't understand that selective action guns and traditional DA/SA autos are treated differently.....

I'm not making the distinction -- the rules are. For a traditional DA/SA auto with a decocker the hammer goes wherever the decocker places it -- and that's fine.

A single action or selective action auto is not the same thing -- so hammer back requires the safety to be applied before holstering to avoid a DQ.....

No dichotomy here -- unless you'd like to pursue a rules change. In that case I suggest an e-mail to your AD, the President and DNROI......

I hate to fall for your snarkiness, but I guess you didn't read the rules and don't understand that the rules say 'cocked', not 'hammer back'. IMHO, neither of those things is the same at half-cock, but one of them is much more clearly not the same.

The way I was taught it's a binary condition -- the gun is either cocked or it's not.

A plain English reading of the rules seems to support that -- you only have two options when dealing with a Selective Action gun:

8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

8.1.2.4 With respect to Rules 8.1.2.1 and 8.1.2.3, the term “safety” means the primary visible safety lever on the handgun (e.g. the thumb safety on a “1911” genre handgun). In the event of doubt, the Range Master is the final authority on this matter. This safety must be on while the firearm is loaded in the holster or loaded in any other location stated in the WSB (e.g.: table start, in a drawer, etc). in order to be in compliance with 10.5.11

The rule -- 8.1.2.3 -- specifically references "hammer fully down" or "hammer cocked with external safety engaged."

The following rule -- 8.1.2.4 -- specifically states that the primary safety must be on, if the hammer is cocked. You keep referring to some other state -- but under a plain English reading of the rules it simply doesn't exist. Either the hammer is all the way forward, or it's cocked.

Please don't take my word on it though -- do check in with your RMI or with DNROI.

[motosapiens]

The way I was taught it's a binary condition -- the gun is either cocked or it's not.

A plain English reading of the rules seems to support that -- you only have two options when dealing with a Selective Action gun:

It sounds like you're saying for selective action gun, it's a binary condition, but for a DA/decocker gun it's not. But clearly, if you examine a gun, it is NOT a binary condition, so it's silly to pretend as tho it is.

I still don't like your reasoning that not conforming with the 'ready position' in 8.1 is grounds for a dq. In general, I don't think it's sensible to have a dq that is constructed by reading numerous different sections of the rules, and inferring some things from one rule and others from a different one. If you're going to dq someone, it should be clearly spelled out imho. In this case, I don't believe it is. A plain english reading of the rules seems to me to support a conclusion opposite of yours. I don't think that makes you stupid, I think that makes the rule inadequately written.

[UncleTK]

I have been following this post and I am confused.

SA/DA actions with a decocker are clear in the rule book.

How many other SA/DA beside the CZ accu-shadow, do not have a decocker, but have a thumb safety, and a 1/2 cock notch.

Edited August 12, 2015 by UncleTK