Velocities for Competition vs. Self-defense

[MissionaryMike]

Disclaimer: I'm a novice, neophyte, grasshopper, padawan.

I read somewhere that it's not recommended to reload my own self/home-defense ammo, so I'm not going to. I favor Federal HST 147g in 9mm(1000 fps) and 230g in .45 acp(890 fps)

I want to start reloading both my tactical training ammo and my competition ammo. The components I have on hand to use are Ramshot competition, BBI 230gr. round nose bullets, and Starline brass. I don't have any primers yet. I guess I'll want a very soft shooting load for competition. However, I'm curious to know if I can get away with the same load for my tactical training purposes. Using Ramshot Comp, even if I load to the max (4gr. w/ 230gr lead bullets), it will only yield a MV of 805 fps, which is considerably less than the 890 fps of the HST. As a result, I'm assuming there will be a considerable difference in muzzle flip and performance. I'm thinking and asking advice about all this because I'd like the recoil and muzzle flip on my training ammo to be as close as possible to the actual ammo I'd be using in a SHTF/defense situation.

Ideally, as a beginner, I'd like to use 1 load for both purposes, but base on the numbers and my assumptions, it doesn't look likely. UNLESS, you guys have some suggestions. Or, am I just being way too analytical here.

[zzt]

I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Develop a load for competition and use it for practice and competition. You will find that after you learn to control recoil, the HSTs will not be hugely different. Later, when you find a slower powder, you can match the HST load if you want to practice with that. There is little point in handicapping yourself for competition with a too hot load. Stick with something around 172 PF for competition and practice for competition.

[MissionaryMike]

I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Develop a load for competition and use it for practice and competition. You will find that after you learn to control recoil, the HSTs will not be hugely different. Later, when you find a slower powder, you can match the HST load if you want to practice with that. There is little point in handicapping yourself for competition with a too hot load. Stick with something around 172 PF for competition and practice for competition.

Yes, you're right. My priority is to develop a load for competition anyway, as I'll be putting that to much more use. Thanks.

[GOF]

In an actual self-defense shooting situation you will not notice the recoil. That is something you'll notice on the range, but not when you are firing at a living target.

Use whatever load works for you in competition as your practice load, and the gun handling skills (target acquisition, sight picture, trigger control, transitions, etc.) will play back for you in the Real World.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I'd suggest you work up some loads using a chrono ...

Possible you can get whatever velocity you want by

working up slowly, with the right powder, and watching

the primers for pressure.

[MAC702]

I read somewhere that it's not recommended to reload my own self/home-defense ammo, so I'm not going to.

You can read something anywhere. Have you read any cases where it actually made the difference?

I'm an instructor for several states, and I carry my reloads. There are several advantages to doing so, and I live in a very pro-self-defense area anyway.

My 1911 is always loaded, and always on me. It also does all my IDPA, USPSA, and other competitions, plus all the practice. I never have to keep track of where its "special" ammo is, or worry about bullet setback from constantly loading and unloading the "special rounds."

You might not "feel" recoil in a defensive situation, but it is still there. My self-defense load is the exact same load I shoot thousands of on a regular basis. Recoil and sight reacquisitions will be identical. Not just close, but identical.

I have NO WORRIES as to whether or not my "special" ammunition is going to be as reliable as my daily range fodder, 230-gr LRN.

I shoot a .45. I have no need of "special" ammunition to avoid overpenetration anyway.

Others may find they don't have the same advantages and will desire special ammunition when carrying. I challenge that lawyers are the least of the reasons.

[bowenbuilt]

Placement is far more important than type of bullet. Put a major PF bullet in the boiler room or brain center and it does not matter what kind of bullet it is, it will still get the job done. I carry what I practice with and I have never felt like I was under gunned.

[Matt in TN]

This. My practice loads are a FMJ version of my carry loads (JHP). Identical velocity and bullet weight. No offense - but I think the guys that say "you won't feel it in a self defense situation" are the same guys that say "shoot slow and accurate and speed will come".

You might not "feel" recoil in a defensive situation, but it is still there. My self-defense load is the exact same load I shoot thousands of on a regular basis. Recoil and sight reacquisitions will be identical. Not just close, but identical.

.

[MissionaryMike]

I use BBI for my practice rounds. What JHP are you guys using. I use Federal HST b/c they're easier to find than Ranger T's. The HST have excellent and extremely consistent expansion. I wouldn't give up using HST as my self defense rounds unless I am actually able to watch a couple of performance videos and am satisfied with the results. So, again, which JHP are y'all using?

Let's say I want to stick with BBI as my practice rounds, because I really like them, if I can achieve the same muzzle velocity with 2 different bullets (but same weight), will recoil feel the same?

[zzt]

MM, I am also a fan of HST. If you load two different bullet weights to the same velocity, the lighter bullet will recoil less because it is a lighter load. If you load the same bullet weight to the same PF, the recoil of the lighter bullet will feel sharper and the sights will settle faster for the second shot.

[Matt in TN]

if I can achieve the same muzzle velocity with 2 different bullets (but same weight), will recoil feel the same?

Yes. Same bullet weight and same velocity (with same powder) will give you the same recoil feel. You may need a slightly different powder charge to get the same velocity out of two different bullets, but that's normal.

I use 230gr Speer Gold Dots for my JHP. I've read HSTs are good too -

[MHicks]

MAC702. Do you use hollow points for your carry, match and practice ammo? What power factor do you load for USPSA and self defense ammo? Mark

[Miranda]

a little late perhaps

http://www.gundigest.com/gun-blogs/books/handloads-not-a-good-idea-for-concealed-carry

I practice with my reloads

I have defense ammo at all other times...

I expect I'll never use them.

miranda

[gng4life]

Along with that article, there is a another very good reason why not to carry your hand loads but I don't want carry on with that here due to rules of the forum. All I will say is, "don't."

I agree you should be loading for competition but don't forget to shoot your actual carry ammo at least semi-annually and keep track of your proficiency with it. When I was a police officer, this is what we did and during the court proceedings, those records always came up. This is just another form of CYA and in today's world, you can't have enough of it.

Sent from the range

[MAC702]

MAC702. Do you use hollow points for your carry, match and practice ammo? What power factor do you load for USPSA and self defense ammo? Mark

No, it's all 230-gr LRN, lead round nose. I don't know the exact power factor, but it's powered by 4.0 grains of Bullseye, per the Lee reloading manual. One of these days, I'll put it over someone's chronograph.

[MHicks]

Mac702. You never know for sure until you do use a chronograph, but the load data (Lyman) lists 4.0 bullseye minimum as the minimum at about 680 fps. max 5.0 at approx. 815 fps.Hornady lists min. 4.4 at 750 fps and max at 5.5 for 900 fps. You need about 720 fps for the minimum legal USPSA or IDPA major of load. Most shooters would want to be about 750 fps to make sure they meet the minimum.

Unless overpenetration is your main concern, 680-700 fps 230 gr would be on the low side for self defense purposes. Just a little info that you might want to consider until you have access to a chrono. Mark

Edited July 20, 2015 by MHicks

[MAC702]

Mac702. You never know for sure until you do use a chronograph, but the load data (Lyman) lists 4.0 bullseye minimum as the minimum at about 680 fps. max 5.0 at approx. 815 fps.Hornady lists min. 4.4 at 750 fps and max at 5.5 for 900 fps. You need about 720 fps for the minimum legal USPSA or IDPA major of load. Most shooters would want to be about 750 fps to make sure they meet the minimum.

Unless overpenetration is your main concern, 680-700 fps 230 gr would be on the low side for self defense purposes. Just a little info that you might want to consider until you have access to a chrono. Mark

Hey, thanks. I'll do some more testing for sure. Lee seems to be a conservative load data!

Overpenetration isn't an overwhelming concern. I want the same load for everything. Especially for civilian self-defense, most bad guys don't stick around to see how hard they were hit.

Edited July 20, 2015 by MAC702