Backup Gun?

[aandabooks]

I am currently a production shooter and run a xdm. My son's G34 is my backup gun if he's not shooting. I've been dabbling in revo with a 625 and a 627. Also classified in SS. Just acquired a SigMax .45 and have a SA RO 9mm that I would like to bring along. Depending on the stage setup I would choose which to shoot major or minor.

My question is what if I have to switch in the middle of the match? Major down to minor or minor up to major? I would imagine the minor to major would just result in me taking the hit of less rounds and more recoil for the remainder of the match.

[motosapiens]

so you're talking about singlestack, and having a backup that is the opposite power factor of your main gun?

this is an interesting question, since I also bring my 45 SS as a backup for my 9mm SS gun. If i'm shooting ss minor and my 9mm gun goes down, I can switch to the 45, but I will still only be able to load 8 rounds in it, and I will still be shooting minor pf since that's what I declared and I probably already shot some stages.

OTOH, it's not clear to me what would happen if declared major and had to switch to my minor backup gun. I presume it would be a similar situation if someone shooting a 40 in SS didn't make major PF after declaring major. For sure, you will get scored minor, but I don't know if you can load 10 rounds into the gun from that point. The appendix D6 for revolvers is pretty clear that capacity is based on the PF you *declared*, but appendix D5 for SS does not appear to specify whether it's talking about declared PF or measured PF.

[aandabooks]

It would seem obvious if I declare minor and have to go major. This would be the case for my revos. 627 goes down and the 625 would take its place and I would have to eat the loss of rounds and recoil while still being scored minor. The SS is not as clear because I will mainly be declaring the major gun unless the match is very lopsided in favor of the 10 rd gun.

[Craig N]

Wouldn't it be just like failing chrono?

[JMike]

5.1.7 Competitors must use the same handgun and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. However, in the event that a competitor’s original handgun and/or sights become unserviceable or unsafe during a match, the competitor must, before using a substitute handgun and/or sights, seek permission from the Range Master who may approve the substitution provided he is satisfied:

5.1.7.1 The substitute handgun satisfies the requirements of the relevant Division.

5.1.7.2 In using the substitute handgun the competitor will not gain a competitive advantage.

5.1.7.3 The competitor’s replacement handgun and its appropriate ammunition must be chronographed per Rule 5.6, regardless of whether or not the original handgun was previously tested.

5.1.7.4 If the original handgun/ammunition was not previously tested, and if the original handgun has already been used on a stage, and can be safely fired (i.e. the malfunction is not related to an inability to safely fire the handgun), then the original handgun and its ammunition supply remain subject to testing.

[LilBunniFuFu]

You are supposed to get RM approval before you change. Once you change you chrono again. If you shot major and now you shoot minor ALL of you shot stages must be shot major if they "failed" chrono ALL are scored minor.

[aandabooks]

So in the case of SS, I would just move down to minor scoring and use capacity. If I'm 5 stages into a 10 stage match then all 10 goes to minor scoring?

But if I start with the 9mm minor and go to the major gun, I would rechrono and get scored major for the rest of the match or all 10 stages?

[JMike]

Minor. The rules state among other things that there cannot be a competitive advantage.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[UncleTK]

So in the case of SS, I would just move down to minor scoring and use capacity. If I'm 5 stages into a 10 stage match then all 10 goes to minor scoring? (No If you start in Major you stay in Major)

But if I start with the 9mm minor and go to the major gun, I would rechrono and get scored major for the rest of the match or all 10 stages? (No If you start in Minor you stay in minor)

[Nik Habicht]

So in the case of SS, I would just move down to minor scoring and use capacity. If I'm 5 stages into a 10 stage match then all 10 goes to minor scoring? (No If you start in Major you stay in Major)

But if I start with the 9mm minor and go to the major gun, I would rechrono and get scored major for the rest of the match or all 10 stages? (No If you start in Minor you stay in minor)

Correct. You declared minor, and for example 171 pf ammo meets the requirement for minor. That it also meets/exceeds the requirement for major, is irrelevant, since you declared minor to begin with....

[motosapiens]

So in the case of SS, I would just move down to minor scoring and use capacity. If I'm 5 stages into a 10 stage match then all 10 goes to minor scoring? (No If you start in Major you stay in Major)

But if I start with the 9mm minor and go to the major gun, I would rechrono and get scored major for the rest of the match or all 10 stages? (No If you start in Minor you stay in minor)

wait, what? Are you saying that if you have to switch to a minor gun for backup, you still stay in major because that's where you started? That can't possibly be what you mean, but it sounds like what you said.

[aandabooks]

I was questioning this as well. That would create a gamer situation. First stage of the day the major gun goes down and a competitor would get to switch to their minor gun but still get scored major. If that were the case, the amount of failing guns would be through the roof.

[LilBunniFuFu]

Start minor, end minor. Start major, still end minor. You cannot go up in PF during a match. Scoring would be WAY too hectic.

[Gary Stevens]

So in the case of SS, I would just move down to minor scoring and use capacity. If I'm 5 stages into a 10 stage match then all 10 goes to minor scoring?

But if I start with the 9mm minor and go to the major gun, I would rechrono and get scored major for the rest of the match or all 10 stages?

How did you arrive at this conclusion?

[motosapiens]

So in the case of SS, I would just move down to minor scoring and use capacity. If I'm 5 stages into a 10 stage match then all 10 goes to minor scoring?

But if I start with the 9mm minor and go to the major gun, I would rechrono and get scored major for the rest of the match or all 10 stages?

How did you arrive at this conclusion?

To me, it sounds like a question (due to the question marks), rather than a conclusion. Do you have any insight onto this topic? (I bet you do).

For sure, if you shoot even one stage minor, the whole match is scored minor. My main question is if you go minor at chrono (or have to switch to a backup gun that is SS minor), do you now get to load 10 rds since you are shooting minor? Or are you stuck with 8 since you declared major? The wording in the rulebook is a bit different for the SS appendix than it is for the revolver appendix.

[Gary Stevens]

So in the case of SS, I would just move down to minor scoring and use capacity. If I'm 5 stages into a 10 stage match then all 10 goes to minor scoring?

But if I start with the 9mm minor and go to the major gun, I would rechrono and get scored major for the rest of the match or all 10 stages?

How did you arrive at this conclusion?

To me, it sounds like a question (due to the question marks), rather than a conclusion. Do you have any insight onto this topic? (I bet you do).

For sure, if you shoot even one stage minor, the whole match is scored minor. My main question is if you go minor at chrono (or have to switch to a backup gun that is SS minor), do you now get to load 10 rds since you are shooting minor? Or are you stuck with 8 since you declared major? The wording in the rulebook is a bit different for the SS appendix than it is for the revolver appendix.

Shooter signs up for major and shoots a stage or stages. For a valid reason obtains permission to switch to a minor PF gun, such as a SS gun. Shooter chronos minor PF gun and resumes shooting at minor PF. IMO, the shooter can load to division capacity.

What was no longer exist. Shooter is now operating under a different rule set.

[ROY NEAL]

And now you see why I travel to a match with 2 identical pistols......so much easier................less calls to Gary for interpretations as well......................just a thought......

[PatJones]

I use the same system to back up my revolver. It'll suck if I have to swap guns, because you'll be shooting 6 minor either way.

If your 8-minor gun goes down you'll be shooting major PF 45 scored minor, 6 at a time.

Where it gets interesting in revolver division is if you are shooting a 6 shot major gun and you need to move to your 8 round minor gun. As discussed above the whole match will be scored minor at that point, but if you shoot a 7th round from your revolver you get bumped to open.

From APPENDIX D6 — Revolver Division

"Maximum ammunition capacity:
No, maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload if Major PF declared, 8 if minor PF declared."

Because you declared major when you registered, you can shoot a maximum of 6 rounds before reloading.

In this case, a couple hundred rounds of .357 magnum might be good to have around. .38 caliber can make major in Revo.

In single stack it is not so clear.

APPENDIX D5 —Single-Stack Division reads:

"Maximum ammunition capacity:
Yes, maximum rounds loaded in any magazine after the start signal -Major Power Factor - 8 rounds -Minor Power Factor - 10 rounds"

It does not use the word "declared." It is unclear to me if you can load to 10 after substituting guns or shooting minor at the chronograph. In the case of the chrono, you'd obviously need to be shooting 40.

[PatJones]

From Troy:

Yes, if you drop to minor, you may load your magazines to the max capacity for minor in Single Stack.TroyOn 6/30/2015 2:55 PM, Patrick Jones wrote:> If you drop to minor power factor in mid-match, either thru > chronograph or a substitute gun, can you now load your magazines to 10 > rounds in Single Stack division?>> Revolver division is quite clear you cannot shoot more than 6 thru the > use of the word "delared" in D6.9.>> Appendix D5.9 does not contain this language and only references power > factor.>-- Troy McManusDirector, National Range Officers Institute

[Gary Stevens]

Glad Troy agrees with me. LOL!!!

[Forrest Halley]

Sounds sketchy that you get locked into six shot minor for a failed six shooter.

Bet this gets cleared up. After a broken gun though....does it really matter if you go open?

Edited July 23, 2015 by Forrest Halley

[yasko]

So in the case of SS, I would just move down to minor scoring and use capacity. If I'm 5 stages into a 10 stage match then all 10 goes to minor scoring? (No If you start in Major you stay in Major)

But if I start with the 9mm minor and go to the major gun, I would rechrono and get scored major for the rest of the match or all 10 stages? (No If you start in Minor you stay in minor)

wait, what? Are you saying that if you have to switch to a minor gun for backup, you still stay in major because that's where you started? That can't possibly be what you mean, but it sounds like what you said.

Before you can shoot the remaining stages, an approval from the RM is in order. No approval would be a No Score. This has happened to one of our shooters.

[yasko]

On 6/30/2015 2:55 PM, Patrick Jones wrote:> If you drop to minor power factor in mid-match, either thru > chronograph or a substitute gun, can you now load your magazines to 10 > rounds in Single Stack division?> 

Certainly not, load in magazine is determined by caliber, not PF. Not making Major PF is no reason to load 10 in magazine.

It is the shooter's responsibility to make sure his ammo passes the test. i think USPSA is not in the business of rewarding shooters who fail the chrono test by allowing them to increase their magazine load unless they change and shoot a pistol of a lower caliber(9mm) but their scores will be recorded as Minor.

Using PF as a basis will surely be more than a handful in Level I matches where no chronos are done.

It scares me to think that our sport is full of gamers and cheats? just my 2 cents

Edited July 27, 2015 by yasko

[PatJones]

I see you know more about this than Troy McManus. That post was a reply I received directly from NROI.

40 S&W makes major and fits more than 8 in the mag if you fail chrono.

If a match director approves a replacement gun in a minor caliber you could also load to 10.

Edited July 27, 2015 by PatJones

[Gary Stevens]

On 6/30/2015 2:55 PM, Patrick Jones wrote:

> If you drop to minor power factor in mid-match, either thru

> chronograph or a substitute gun, can you now load your magazines to 10

> rounds in Single Stack division?

>

Certainly not, load in magazine is determined by caliber, not PF. Not making Major PF is no reason to load 10 in magazine.

It is the shooter's responsibility to make sure his ammo passes the test. i think USPSA is not in the business of rewarding shooters who fail the chrono test by allowing them to increase their magazine load unless they shoot a pistol of a lower caliber(9mm) but their scores will be recorded as Minor.

I guess you disagree with the DNROI.