Participation.....

[hopalong]

I just go off the USPSA area 7 website.....

Looking at Scores for The Smith&Wesson Winter IDPA championships How's that looking at IDPA scores on a USPSA Website before IDPA has them up !!!

There were 24 revolver shooters at this match.....

A Match with only Trophies to win (prize table if any by random)

Why can't USPSA draw more revolver shooters (let's keep it nice )

IS it that USPSA shooting with all the shots in the stages intimidate revolver shooters?

Is it that USPSA shooting is not normally "revolver friendly"? (A Crock IMHO) Revos shoot against Revos

In my short 5 years of shooting both IDPA and USPSA I have noticed that USPSA shooters that shoot both more often than not come out on top of the heap or way up there.

Example this years S&W match... SSP (production stuff) Dave Sevigney ESP (single action other than .45) Todd Jarrett CDP Single action .45 only Ernest Langdon SSR (Revolver) Jerry Miculek.

Is it that USPSA is a game that has EVOLVED away from revolver as being a viable platform to use? Naaaahhhhh

What's up could someone explain this to me....?????.....

What am I not seeing?

I shoot both but if I had to settle for one it would definately be USPSA without any hesitation at all......

Hopalong / Sam Keen the guy who just doesn't understand

[MikeFoley]

Everybody I know that shoots any revolver around here, except Jack and Airedale, shoot it as a second gun(me included). Maybe with the choices available in the 5 classes we have, the wheelies take a back seat to most shooters. I know that there are other diehard revolver only shooters that shoot other sports and not this one. It is perplexing as to why they don't shoot USPSA.

[firewalker]

Sam I just joined USPSA and will quallify with revolver first then probally production or lim 10, SO i dont think its a matter of not enough interest. I had put my revolver on the shelf for a few months because of the IDPA rules. But now i will just shoot more USPSA.

In answer to your question i started in IDPA, even thou i knew of IPSC. why? because i was a newbie and was intimated. No one i know likes the new revolver rules in IDPA, but i wont bash IDPA.....My belief is there will be a lot more cross over shooters now.....thats all, In the end it will benifit both shooting sports i think

And yes i will practice now so when i do meet you i wont get ma ass waxed to badly

Frederick Haring

[Bubber]

Sam, is the question Why there is not a lot of Revo shooters at a big USPSA match? And Why does IDPA have so many? Big USPSA matches let you only shoot one Division, or at least that used to be the case, not sure anymore. Does IDPA let you compete in more than 1 Division? I really haven't bought into the Revos shoot only against Revos theory. I shoot the Revo at the local matches, which involves only a 150 to 300 mile round trip, and except for the ICORE match in Tontitown Ark. I am the only revo ther for the most part. A fellow shooter from Tulsa has been shooting his Revo for the last 3 months but does not enjoy finishing toward the bottom of the sheet. I don't shoot big matches much because of the costs. Entry fees are only part of the cost. I was at the Nationals in 1996. I had broken the Revo I was going to shoot and had to shoot a bottomfeeder. Tetsu Murata (sp) had won the High Revolver that year. He felt that they did not recognize the Revos much there. I had finished 2nd in The Revo Division in a S&W Pro Am Event in Rio Salado and the Match Director skipped over the 1st and 2nd place revos and had to be reminded about us so that we could receive something from the prize table. I know all this happend many years ago and that USPSA is doing a little better. But if you pay a large entry fee, lose time from work, and pay for room and board, you would hope to get someting nice form the prize table. I am don't expect to break even but when you go in order of finish shoooting a revo it is down a ways. And if they have a different table for each division usually there is not a lot to draw from on the Revo table. I have been to the Shoot offs in Colorado a few years and that is where I get my opinions.

Damn that is a big post. Just my thoughts Sam. later

But I will still shoot my revo where I can.

[1911user]

I'm just getting back into USPSA and action pistol type shooting in general. I think part of the reason more people don't shoot revolvers in USPSA is that there aren't very many shooting revolvers now. There is no core social group at a USPSA match shooting revolvers regularly (unlike the 1911s, open guns, wide-body limited guns). I think a sizable part of USPSA is that it is a social gathering of pistol shooters especially at the local level.

Would a newbie really want to start out as an outsider? If you show up with a common semi-auto pistol and have problems, people will probably have the experience (and spare parts, mags, ammo, mag carriers, holsters, etc.) to help out. How many people carry extra speedloaders and Safariland 333 carriers?

Reloading quickly and carrying at least 6 speedloaders is another issue. Reloading every 6 shots means lots of chances for a less than perfect reload (and looking bad in a social setting). IDPA has a max of 18 shots required which greatly reduces the number of required reloads (and only 3 speedloaders may be carried) for the revolver shooter. It's been awhile since shooting any IDPA, but I recall most of the courses being 6 rounds max between a reload opportunity (revolver neutral). Also, IDPA would seem alot more inviting to someone who only had an old revolver to shoot.

For someone who isn't going to get fancy and use a competition revolver, IDPA is going to look attractive. If you are shooting USPSA with a revolver and not using moonclips, then you're really behind everyone else and at even more of a disadvantage in addition to the revolver disadvantage. Most people don't keep S&W 625s or moonclip revolvers for house guns; a 6-shot K-frame S&W or similar would be alot more common IMHO.

Why would someone who really wants to get into USPSA go out and buy a special revolver just for competition when they could get a semi-auto for the same (or even less) money? Without a core group of revolver shooters as kind of a nucleus, it's probably not going to happen very often. Hardcore revolver shooters are going to shoot a revolver no matter what, but most people aren't hardcore revolver shooters with multiple 625s available.

Standing reloads are another roadblock. Yes, revolvers only compete against revolvers, in theory. In practice, everyone kind of mentally competes against everyone else at small, local matches. In USPSA, my experience has been that a "standing reload" is a very dirty thing and should be avoided at all costs because it kills your score. Yet, very few USPSA matches are 6-shot revolver neutral (whether this is a good thing or bad is completely seperate discussion) so only the revolver shooters have to do that dirty standing reload thing even if they don't miss and the final tally sheet drives the point home.

Just looking at the roots of USPSA, it seems biased toward semi-autos from the beginning and really hasn't changed in that respect. The historical USPSA weapon is the 1911 45ACP. With higher capacity semis being the norm, there hasn't been a strong effort to keep the revolver competative; even 10 shot mags are standard in what were historically 7-8 round 1911s. Ammo capacity really is a dividing line in USPSA.

Sorry to sound so negative about revolvers, but that is what the situation looks like to me. I may try to get a revolver classification this year, but it will be as a second gun; my 1911 45 comes first. I have chosen to focus on USPSA exclusively for pistol and not shoot IDPA. USPSA is just a better fit for me.

MODS: if this post is not in the correct spirit for this forum, edit/delete as needed.

[REVOLVER]

I have been shooting a Revolver for most of my life. Started with my fathers K-22 (not Masterpice) County Mounties and USAF issued me the S&W M-15. I halled around a S&W M-25 in the 45.LC chambering for several years as a Police Officer in Alaska. I have never had any problem meeeting standards whith a revolver any where I have worked. I now live in Alabamstan and altho most of the USPSA shooters in my area use some form of brass spreder I can only think of one ot two times that I totalyy out in left field using a revolver. This year I can't shoot the Alabama Secitoinal because it is a Limited onley match. Revolvers not allowed (open.L-10,and porduction out also).

So much for the gripe. The way i try and keep the matches revolver friendly is to help with setup. Since I am quite often the onley revolver shooter I am not always sucessful but I can often get changes made that make the stage livable for a revolver person. By thking part in running the matches we can influnce the designs. When a shooter just shows up they take what some one else sets up. The local IDPA club has several revolver shooters but ther match schedules keep them away from the USPSA shoots.

In this area there is a USPSA match every weekend within 1 1/2 houe drive. If you need some pratice you can also find an IDPA shoot almost every weekend. There are times that I am on the road all weekend. (NOTE: need to convince boss to sponcer need gas money)

When talking to new shooters I find that they have been influnced by the Gun Store comandoes and hav not goten the whole story about the revolver. Most of the time they have been shown a 2in S&W or some Monster SA Magnum. Even worsr they looked at a raged out beat up revolver left over from a police auctoin. Then shown a nice new plastic bottom feeding brass spreder. Noting the 5lbs of ammo the wonder 9 can carry and the nice and spoungie but light trigger they are sold. Around here it is hard to find a quality revolver but realy easey to locate at least 20 or 30 brass spreders. once a new shooter has bought in to the bottom feeding heresy it takes a long time to get them to see the true light. One thing that I do is bring a .38 and a bunch of HKS loaders wkth me to each match. i am more than willing to lend a new shooter a good S&W ans everything else they need to shoot with us. Note: Newby may be safer with SAonley weel gun than self stuffer. What I am saying is we need to work the match inorder to keep the playing field leval and reach out to the new shooter leading them to the true path.

So much for my rant this Sunday morning.

[D.carden]

Hello everyone,

Here goes a short version.

While at the Florida Open i was able to talk to alot of new people,and make some new friends that will last a life time. On stage 2 ( memorial day ), first one of the day, i had a good run (speed wize). Afer finishing, a member of the Guatamalan team asked how i was able to shoot a revolver sooo fast. I explained " practice " and lots of it.

When i asked that he give it a try someday the reply was " its too much work", DA trigger, 6# pull, travel length, etc.

But it wasn't his reply, it was the look on his "face" that gave the real answer. PAIN-PAIN-PAIN-IN-THE-A$$$$ these guns are.

It seems that most shooters that use a auto and on occasion revo might not get a proper action job on the ole 6-shooter therefore not experiencing a smooth trigger job. This can at this point make for a "lot of work " they're not acustomed to. Plus the other reasons mention by others above.

I never cared about revo freindly stages, round count, standing reloads etc. " BRING-IT-ON, I'M HERE TO SHOOT".

Dan Carden

[acolt45]

Revolvers were once great to shoot in IPSC that was back in the seventies.

Then we had 6 rd arays. In the eighties the 8 rd mags were introduced, and the targets arays went to 8 rds.

In the nineties the 175mm mag length was introduced – and we went to 10 rd arays.

Most matches have 8 rd arays today, with some at 10 rds.

With this higher round count per array - if we wanted to be competitive we had to change or go somewhere else and shoot our wheel guns. Some of us went to PPC, but then returned with Autos and those longer mags hanging out of the firearm. This is more fun punching more holes in them targets without reloading.

My first IPSC match was in 1978, in Florida and it was a blast. 1 field course, 24 targets (3 targets per array) 2 rds each, distance ranged from 2yds to 60 yards over a zig zag field course on a 200 yard rifle range, shooting at the burms on each side. Run shoot 6, run/reload shoot six until all targets were engaged, then run back to the starting line with empty/cleared holstered firearm. You had a maximum of 2mins 45 seconds to complete the course. There were more revolver shooters than auto shooters back then. Yes we had speed loaders, but only two, we had to wear a jacket to carry our loose ammo. Most of us used the 357mag, and a few rugged shooters the 44mag.

Things have really changed and improved over the following years. Now we have high tech space guns, where everything has changed.

As an old revolver shooter I would have liked to stay with it, but do too the 8 and 10 rd arays that’s what keeps me from competing with the 6 shot revolver. Plus if no one else shoots revolver in a match why shoot in that division. I believe it is more fun competing with someone with a similar firearm (auto’s).

I know we should adapt to changes, but that’s life.

Classification matches and real matches are two different animals.

If more folks would use revolvers maybe more revolver shooters would return and/or compete.

Remember to shoot because you enjoy it and have fun doing it – equipment only allows you to shoot more rounds - faster.

Revolver shooters today go where other revolver shooters go. To compete against the same type group with more shooters.

[John Dunn]

leading them to the true path.

Guys, it's a semi-auto world. How many military or police organizations have a revo as standard issue these days? How many pump shotguns are winning 3 gun matches? How many manually operated rifles are winning 3 gun (not MOR)? Why aren't there more competitors in the bow and arrow division?

If you look at stages as a problem to be solved, the best answer to a 32 rd field course is an open gun, then limited, then L-10/Production, then 6 shot revo.

Can amazing things be done with revolvers? Of course, I've seen the videos of Jerry and the top Cowboy shooters. Will I compete in USPSA with a revolver some day? You bet. Will I be shocked and apalled when only a handful of revolver shooters show up at the nationals? No way. You can call them bottom feeders or brass spreaders or whatnot, but it's a semi-auto world.

[Merlin Orr]

But it wasn't his reply, it was the look on his "face" that gave the real answer. PAIN-PAIN-PAIN-IN-THE-A$$$$ these guns are.

Limited gun to Open gun shooter - "Why don't you shoot Limited?"

see above

Production gun to Limited gun shooter - "Why don't you shoot Production?"

see above

Single Stack gun to "whatever" gun shooter - "Why don't you shoot a Single Stack?"

see above

Different strokes and all that..

I do not own nor have I ever shot a round gun in competition. It is something I do not think I would like and I have never had the opportunity to borrow a gun and try it. The true reason may be that it looks too damn hard. IF someone I shoot around had a loaner I might try it and then - who knows...

I do think they are kool. I consider them kind of "retro" asnd I get my "retro" fix/kicks by shooting my Single Stack.

[Nik Habicht]

I think John hit part of the nail solidly on the head. My take: It used to be that there were simple and usually reliable guns (revolvers) and complicated guns that had levers and required lubrication and attention (1911s, BHPs)to run consistently. Then along came brother Gaston, and introduced a bottom fed simple and reliable gun (for all intents and purposes as easy as the wheelgun to operate) and others (Sig, Beretta, S&W 3rd Gen, Kahr, etc.) followed along.

(I realize some of these companies were cranking out guns while Glock wasn't even thinking about a gun, but Glock stood the marketplace on its head, not only with the simplicity of the design for both shooters and armorers, but also with the marketing and factory support and the Law Enforcement trade in your 9s for .40s program. Without Glock, I'm betting that the LE transition to the semi-auto would have taken much longer.)

For the first time the public began to perceive that there were reliable semi-autos available --- and I think that contributed heavily to the trend away from wheelguns. I know when two of my friends took me handgun shooting for the first time, I got to shoot a 686 and a Browning HiPower. Both were fun, but the BHP was much easier to hit with.......

[hopalong]

I know you guys mean well....

BUT

I am trying to figure out how some of the other "shooting sports" that have more participation in the revolver area get that participation...

I understand ICORE Revolver shooters shooting revolver matches (not too hard to figure that one out)

IDPA has a decent following of Revolver shooters look at the numbers .... last years IDPA Nationals 58 revolvers compared to USPSA 18

Take for instance the Smith&Wesson Championship 24 revolvers... compared to USPSA nationals 18?????

Why can't USPSA/IPSC get these people to come shoot ????? It is not any harder just more shooting !!!!

Is it the Autoloader shooting INTIMIDATES these guys/gals?

Hell I don't know....

I guess we have to do it ourselves... I have been trying but it seems like a waste of time sometimes.....

Hopalong

BTW I shot a bottom feeder today just for the Hell of it (17 months since the last time) and had fun with it too... But will be back to the

(Marty Robins...Country music singer)

Big Iron  

Tomorrow

[redmist10]

IDPA might encourage more simply due to the lower round count and smaller target arrays. IDPA is A LOT less intimidating than "IPSC" or USPSA, IMHO, as someone that was scared to death to try USPSA and very nervous when starting IDPA.

First, IPSC/USPSA has a huge stigma attached to it as "impractical" and equipment biased. IDPA has done a wonderful job marketing itself as the more tactical, realistic, and new-shooter friendly sport - regardless if it is true or not....perception = reality.

I've listened for years (and still get an earfull) of how evil and misguided USPSA is compared to the "martial art" of IDPA...they're just different, not ying and yang Most of what I used to hear (and sometimes it can be true in either sport) was that IDPA is more like buddies shooting and USPSA is gamers and a-holes.

Couple these ideas with some of the true and imagined challenges of shooting "an antique" and the fact that some people just don't want to put the time into getting good - autos are not necessarily easier but they are more forgiving to the weekend warrior.

An average Expert in IDPA can be relegated to perpetual C-class in USPSA if they don't put in the time to move up (if that's their desire). A Master class in IDPA might never make it to A-class in USPSA. No one likes to feel limited in their sport and I think it keeps some people away from USPSA.

You know that when you show up at an IDPA match with a revolver some people will scoff or laugh but then if you can beat a few of them; they change their tune and warm up to the idea (especially if you do it consistently). In USPSA you are considered a little more "off your nut" if you shoot revolver...but the payoff is bigger there if you begin to beat a large percentage of the shooters

...and in case some people don't believe USPSA makes you a faster IDPA shooter they should talk to some of the older IDPA revolver Masters...they typically started in USPSA in the 70's or 80's when there wasn't any other game in town. By cross-competing in the two sports I have opened up a whole new world of opportunities and experiences. It is up the the individual to take the first step and to do so you often have to leave your comfort zone and trust yourself to make up your own mind. I certainly am glad I quit listening to others and began experiencing for myself.

USPSA with a revolver is the most challenging thing I've tried with a handgun.

[Nik Habicht]

Hop,

here's one additional theory: The max number of rounds in an IDPA stage is eighteen, which usually works out to two reloads for the round gunners. It's lots easier to compare your times with an auto shooting buddy with fewer reloads, rather than the five or six usually required on a USPSA stage. IDPA's request to keep stage design revolver friendly/neutral probably doesn't hurt that either.

I know from talking to REVO shooters at the S&W Winter Nats, that a number of them are competing with their carry revolvers ---- so there may be a perception that IDPA is simply revolver friendlier. As to ICORE; I'd expect to see a ton of Glocks at a Glock match.....

I have next to no desire to shoot a revolver in a match ---- but in order of likelihood, here's what I'd consider participating in:

Back-up gun match

IDPA Match

USPSA Match..........

[MikeFoley]

Forget about all of us bottom feeders for a minute, and even those of us who occasionally dabble in the wheelgun.

WHY aren't more Revolver only shooters shooting USPSA?

Sure, a lot of IDPA members in every division will never shoot USPSA for various aforementioned reasons like intimidation, round counts, difference of opinion on why we are shooting, etc.

WHERE are the ICORE shooters? The PPC shooters? The Bowling Pin and Silhouette shooters?

Maybe they are off playing their games, I still don't know.

Not any closer to an answer Sam, but do I at least understand the question?

[redmist10]

Consider distribution of these sports versus IDPA or USPSA?

I don't even think there is an ICORE or PPC club in Ohio....and I've been to most ranges south of I-70 and many north of it.

I think the general design of IDPA stages is more suitable for a wide distribution of clubs. One such club in southeast Ohio has only four shooting bays and they are barely 30' wide by 45' deep. They still put on fun stages....but you couldn't shoot a USPSA match to save your life.

I believe more people have exposure to IDPA than USPSA for this and other reasons. After this you factor in the forementioned items and you might be getting warmer...I dunno.

[hopalong]

yes Fomiester you got the question down.....

Now what to do about it?????

HOP

By the Way....

Hi Richard G. Welcome, good to see you on the forums.... See you at Area-6?

Edited March 7, 2005 by hopalong

[Carmoney]

OK, maybe I'm being silly, but I think we may be at the cusp of a mild to moderate Revolver renaissance in USPSA. The very fact that this string has generated so much thoughtful and interesting commentary and opinion means that people are interested in this topic!

Some of us are figuring out that the difficulties which are accurately listed above are the very reasons why shooting IPSC with a revolver is so challenging--and ultimately, so interesting and maybe even addictive!!

It's like kinda bowhunting. Or climbing Everest without oxygen tanks. You don't choose to do it that way because it's efficient and easy.

Our social group is growing. For example: For several years running, Cliff "El Conquistador" Walsh won Revo very handily at the Florida Open (a huge major important match on the USPSA circuit, by anyone's measurement) against minimal competition. This year a bunch of us decided it shouldn't be so easy for the Cliff the Conqueror. So Hopalong showed up. D.Carden showed up. I showed up. This really fast Ricardo kid from Ecuador showed up. And several other very competent wheelgunners. (Cliff still beat us all--proving that indeed he deserves that title that has been in his family for thousands of years--but by God we made him shoot for it this time.) And we had an absolute blast down there!

We've got a whole slew of revolver guys signed up for Flex's Ohio match, including at least one junior revolver shooter (how often do you see that?), and we've got guys going out of their way to shoot Revo at the SunFlower match in Topeka, the Iowa Sectional, and all sorts of other places you wouldn't expect (not just down south, where Revo shooters have always found something of a haven).....

Let's all keep talking it up.

Let's make the IDPA refugees know they're welcome here.

Let's have a great time wheeling our way through the 2005 shooting season!

Mike

[Jerry V]

hopalong,

Even though I'm new to USPSA, I believe more people will eventually compete with a revolver for the same reasons we do -- because it's a lot of fun and for the challenge. You see, I've been through this sort of thing before.

16yrs ago (89') I switched from a compound bow to a recurve, back then there few traditional archers and the shoots were all set up for high tech gear. Those of us with longbows & recurves weren't even considered when setting up a shoot and at times treated rudely . But we really didn't care, we accepted the challenge and had fun. In the early 90's, interest in traditional archery started to grow in leaps & bounds -- people were getting tired of the high tech equipment and were attracted to the simplicity & challenge of traditional archery. Though it can be frustrating at times, the fun factor more than made up for it -- if you stuck with it. Soon we were shooting in our own class at 3D shoots and at distances more realistic for stickbows and had traditional only shoots of our own. Traditional Archery is still growing, will it ever over take the high-tech archers? I doubt it, but it doesn't matter because we're still having a lot of fun.

IMHO, if we just go to the matches with the attitude of trying our best with the stages we're given, remember it's just a game and just have fun, other's will see that and will want to join in

[MikeFoley]

Hopalong, I almost forgot!

This may look like drift, but it is kind of pertinent.

Saturday was youth reactive target day at my local club. We have a strong youth program that has an event almost every weekend in one part of our club or another, and this is the second time the pistol club has hosted this particular event. Other youth events this past year have included cowboy action with rimfires.

I placed every type of gun imagineable on the table, Open, Limited, SingleStack, Glock, a .22, and my new 610. The youngest shooter was 4 years old, and he shot the rimfire, but the boys in their teens all wanted to shoot my 610. It was probably the most familiar action to them, because it looks like what their fathers and grandfathers have at home.

I wonder of Bane or Scouten were to do a show on their network about USPSA Revovler, if participation would increase from the guys sitting at home that don't know about us? It has certainly created an interest at our local club, and we have more new shooters, and even some spectators every month.

Just a thought.

[9146gt]

Redmist10

Here is a link to PPC in Oh.

www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Arena/2351/index.html

Tom

[redmist10]

Thanks

I have very little experience with PPC but from what I can gather it is a different sort of animal compared to IDPA or USPSA. I'm not sure that the PPC diehards would be too eager to come over to "run and gun" or a milder version.

It looks very challenging though I'd have to become acquainted with my 686 again

[revchuck]

I'm primarily an IDPA SSR shooter, but I'm also a USPSA member and shoot Production. I don't shoot revolver in IPSC due to the 180 rule - when I reload, the muzzle goes straight up, and occasionally might break the vertical 180 (albeit not by much). I just don't want to get fired up for a match only to be DQed after the first six rounds. When my Blade-Tech carrier gets here I'll actually have enough to carry six speedloaders - I might chance it anyway.

[redmist10]

I don't shoot revolver in IPSC due to the 180 rule - when I reload, the muzzle goes straight up, and occasionally might break the vertical 180 (albeit not by much).

I had this happen at the Indiana Sectional last year. I politely told the SO that he needs to shoot a wheelgun more often. 180 "up" while dumping an empty gun is not a safety violation, IMHO, but then I'm not the SO. I've also had them try to say it in IDPA (to be fair) and after a brief course in Revo101 and a polite comment to the MD they let up a bit.

[zookeeper]

Fomeister, to answer some of the questions you and others have asked regarding PPC, though I don't agree with it, most leagues are open to Police with arrest powers or police academy instructors only. This means turning a segment of the wheelgun crowd away. Also with a majority of the law enforment commuinity using semi-automatic weapons, some guys will shoot a sport with there duty gun or a like model for the training value.

Since the Seond Chance match, bowling pins have gone away but hopfully not forever. With this sport being time/labor intensive, it is hard for small local matches to generate excitement.

ICORE actually has a good cross-over with the NRA Action and some IPDA. Now that many NRA action guys have went to the auto, there old open wheels are coming out of retirement.

In my opinion, wheelgunners are a different breed and will usually stick together. At the 2004 TN State match, Hopalong loaned Cliff Walsh his weapon to finsh the match. I think unless you are riding in a car to a match together, the average open shooter is not going to do something like that. The wheelgunner usually is shooting against himself or Jerry M. They don't get tied up in the "what-did-so-and-so-do" thing. Wheelgunners are there for fun. How do we make other shooters want to try this division? Look at GSSF and how many new production shooters has your club seen from your annual GSSF match? If S&W,Ruger, etc. start something like GSSF but for wheels you proabley would see a increasce in your division registration both in USPSA and IDPA. Create a match that will not overwelm a new person with different facets of the sport . . . but a level playing field to excite the average shooter and the class will grow.