Moltke Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 When match directors are planning stages do you plan for the 8rd tube shooters, or the higher capacity tube shooters like 10's & 12's? Probably going to be more 10/12rd shooters because Tacops is bigger... and having arrays or 8 is going to get annoying quickly. Or do you just put a bunch of stuff downrange where it looks good and let them figure it out? I'm curious as to how arrays come about because some matches are also using Option Targets (shootable with pistols), and then there's when and where to work in slug targets... or even making those slug targets Option Targets too. I have been trying to get my local club to have a shotgun mega match and the better plan I have ready for them, the easier it's going to be to implement (I hope). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) A "good" stage does not look at the skill level of the competitor nor the equipment in the idea phase. Once the "idea" has been made, then the distances, target size, presentation is developed. A weak stage designer "plans" for specific capacity whereas a strong stage designer develops the stage to minimize equipment and capacity issues and test the shooting skill of new, intermediate and the top shooters while avoiding tricks/traps and "gotcha's". I will actually take arrays and shoot them with 8, 10 and 12 round tubes (pump and auto) and a 22AR with 25 rounds (only way i can shoot at "Jerry speed") to make sure the stage is going to flow well for all capacities and speeds. When 10 or 12 round arrays are used, the good stage designer will set that array so that the 8 round capacity shooter can move and load some. When it comes to choice, I make an attempt to balance the time for each platform based on a mid level shooters skill level. If someone is a pistol GM and not very good at shotgun, then of course that will push that shooter one way. If OTOH, you have a great shotgunner that hates pistol, that will push that way. The choices should be balanced so that the shooter can choose based on their strengths, capacities, etc. A "great" stage is one where shooters from Open match winners to last place in pump will enjoy the stage and there will be a lot of different approaches. I have often walked up to top level shooters staring at one of my stages with a furrowed brow and asked them if there was a problem only to find out they were obsessing over the best way to shoot it. That is balance and challenge that worked out. I know I am in the minority when it comes to slug targets, but I do my best to make sure they can be shot at the beginning or end of the stage and if they are in the middle, provide a transition target that will not result in a DQ. I avoid close steel on stages with slugs since slugs are the most dangerous projectile we shoot in terms of come-backers and I do not like to make a loading mistake also be a safety risk. Many stage designers try to get too tricky. The easy stage or the tricky stage will be won by the best shooters. Adding non-shooting tricks and physical challenges that penalize young, old, new shooters or has some manipulation of equipment that the "home-crowd" knows is discouraging and poor sportsmanship by the stage designer. A stage everyone enjoys for the shooting should be the goal. Edited June 17, 2015 by MarkCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
co-exprs Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I'm still new to the MD thing but I can tell you how we design stages for the Shooter Source Shotgun Challenge. I don't plan around magazine capacity. I figure out what challenge I want the shooters to experience, what problem to solve, then rough it out. Once the start and the specific challenge has been established, I fill in the gaps with however many targets I need to keep the stage moving and flowing. I've found that it is better to break up large blocks of targets into smaller segments separated by barriers and movement, than to have a large group of targets here and another large group there. Since I started out shooting USPSA, and shotgun is mostly within pistol engagement distances, I lean heavily on my pistol shooting experience when designing stages. Particularly the larger, pistol, field courses. All stage designers eventually develop their own style. I design stages I would lile to shoot myself (and then rarely get to shoot them) and my stages tend to lean towards flow and movement. If I do end up with a large array in one spot, I rarely go over 9 shots. My 9 shot limit is because a lot of guys show up with an 8 shot magazine and my larger arrays usually have clays launched with Black Sheep Kickers. It sucks to have to stop and reload in the middle of a thrown bird. At least this way, some one with an 8 shot tube can top off and shoot the entire array, if they don't take any extras. Even then, I don't do very many 9 shot arrays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 Thanks for that insight. Another question - Why don't we see lots of different shooting positions with the shotgun? Usually shotgunning is not through ports / holes / barricades / cars like rifles. I mean yeah there is some shooting from inside cars at targets outside cars but nothing like the weird positions experienced with rifle shooting. From the matches i've shot most of the shotgunning I've done is stand & blast, loading while moving, stand & blast, load while moving, maybe a little shooting on the move too, but it's all just upright walking and shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Because MDs aren't making shooters do that stuff . I like those challenges personally. Couple of our local MDs in INMG series utilize a Vtac in crazy ways with rifle and shotgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 We do shotgun prone once in a while, but boy...the complaining... It is pretty exciting loading a shotgun while laying on your loaders and for those who shoot pump...another challenge. It isn't for the weak of heart! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 We do shotgun prone once in a while, but boy...the complaining... It is pretty exciting loading a shotgun while laying on your loaders and for those who shoot pump...another challenge. It isn't for the weak of heart! For those of us with box fed shotguns, that stage would be the "kiss of death". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 A "good" stage does not look at the skill level of the competitor nor the equipment in the idea phase. Once the "idea" has been made, then the distances, target size, presentation is developed. A weak stage designer "plans" for specific capacity whereas a strong stage designer develops the stage to minimize equipment and capacity issues and test the shooting skill of new, intermediate and the top shooters while avoiding tricks/traps and "gotcha's". I will actually take arrays and shoot them with 8, 10 and 12 round tubes (pump and auto) and a 22AR with 25 rounds (only way i can shoot at "Jerry speed") to make sure the stage is going to flow well for all capacities and speeds. When 10 or 12 round arrays are used, the good stage designer will set that array so that the 8 round capacity shooter can move and load some. When it comes to choice, I make an attempt to balance the time for each platform based on a mid level shooters skill level. If someone is a pistol GM and not very good at shotgun, then of course that will push that shooter one way. If OTOH, you have a great shotgunner that hates pistol, that will push that way. The choices should be balanced so that the shooter can choose based on their strengths, capacities, etc. A "great" stage is one where shooters from Open match winners to last place in pump will enjoy the stage and there will be a lot of different approaches. I have often walked up to top level shooters staring at one of my stages with a furrowed brow and asked them if there was a problem only to find out they were obsessing over the best way to shoot it. That is balance and challenge that worked out. I know I am in the minority when it comes to slug targets, but I do my best to make sure they can be shot at the beginning or end of the stage and if they are in the middle, provide a transition target that will not result in a DQ. I avoid close steel on stages with slugs since slugs are the most dangerous projectile we shoot in terms of come-backers and I do not like to make a loading mistake also be a safety risk. Many stage designers try to get too tricky. The easy stage or the tricky stage will be won by the best shooters. Adding non-shooting tricks and physical challenges that penalize young, old, new shooters or has some manipulation of equipment that the "home-crowd" knows is discouraging and poor sportsmanship by the stage designer. A stage everyone enjoys for the shooting should be the goal. Where is the damned "like" button on this page when I need it??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 We do shotgun prone once in a while, but boy...the complaining... It is pretty exciting loading a shotgun while laying on your loaders and for those who shoot pump...another challenge. It isn't for the weak of heart! For those of us with box fed shotguns, that stage would be the "kiss of death". You guys have a few short magazines don't you??? I remember one at Ft Benning where we had to shoot through this low port on the ground...it was only about 6 or 7 inches tall...ended up on an angle...lots of people shot with their shotgun sideways...AND there was foot fault line that made it hard to get into any decent position! That wasn't even one of ours! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothandnail Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) We do shotgun prone once in a while, but boy...the complaining... It is pretty exciting loading a shotgun while laying on your loaders and for those who shoot pump...another challenge. It isn't for the weak of heart! For those of us with box fed shotguns, that stage would be the "kiss of death". Not at all, we shot a major match that a stage was "setup" to beat the mag fed SG. Prone, had 2 - 8" high , 24" wide ports, I had the 3rd fastest time on that stage using my 24 round mag. ETA: I haven't seen a stage yet that I couldn't use my 24 if I wanted to, fact is, I have only used a smaller mag twice since we built the first one. those stages had less than 8 targets Edited June 18, 2015 by toothandnail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothandnail Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 I did have a customer tell me an MD that didn't like mag fed, setup a stage that they couldn't shoot, except with a 5 rnd mag. Basically a low port that was also a long box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benelli Chick Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 I think it's just a different challenge... Sometimes, those big mags are so quick and you never have to change mags...and people marvel at how you keep shooting and shooting and never load... And then sometimes, they can be a pain and are harder to deal with... I'm not sure it's a design against the shotgun...at least it's not for us...JJ shoots an Akdal sometimes and enjoys the heck out of it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Another question - Why don't we see lots of different shooting positions with the shotgun? I think there are several reasons. Some MDs have no contact with the practical application of firearms (not good or bad per se, just is) while others have a lot. 3Gun has changed a LOT in the past 5 years, some good, some bad (and what those specific things are for each will vary from shooter to shooter) and at the same time, loading shotgun has been mitigated. Used to be shotgun loading was the #1 separator between the top dozen or so...and the rest of the field. MDs are, in some sense adjusting to the new nature of the game. So too, the shotgun has more horsepower and awkward positions, etc will certainly favor the larger and thicker competitors tipping the playing field. MDs who are not very skilled on one platform who also shoot their own matches also tend to make that platform less challenging. One or more of these issues may be reasons why a particular MD has certain elements in their shotgun arrays. I know that at the Shooters Source PPSGC and at the Nordic Shotgun match you will see more challenging arrays. Kurt and Trapr also had some arrays that were very challenging, including positionally, some of which I have still never seen repeated. I have put a few arrays in the Novekse match that will stretch some shooters shotgun skills beyond their comfort zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moltke Posted June 18, 2015 Author Share Posted June 18, 2015 Well there's a possible trade off. Those thicker shooters who might deal with the recoil better from an awkward position will probably have a harder time getting into and out of some of this same positions as fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 I try to come up with new and interesting shooting positions for shotgunners from time to time. However, as Denise said, there are profound challenges with loading, pumping etc. in some positions, not to mention dropped shells and fouled/damaged caddies. Everyone likes a challenging position from time to time, but overdoing it would probably start to piss people off. I once designed a stage for a night match where you had to shoot your shotgun under a car. The cloud of dust produced by the muzzle blast reflected the flashlight back in your face. Shooters were coughing and squinting. It was hilarious to watch... until it was my turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 I shot a pump gun on that &*^%%$* Benning stage. My elbows haven't been the same since. Prone + pumpgun = pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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