World shoot USPSA teams.

[Julien Boit]

Open: Max Michel Jr, Chris Tilley, JJ Racaza, Jojo Vidanes

Standard: Taran Butler, Phil Strader, Michael Voigt, Emanuel Bragg

Production: Dave Sevigny, David Olhasso, Bruce Gray, John Flentz

Ladies Open: Kay Clark Miculek, Athena Lee, Julie Goloski, Sheryl Cruz

Junior Open: KC Eusebio, Brad Balsley, Jake Hicks, Jack Carraher

I just picked this from NRG website, is it right ?

No Rob ? No Travis ? No Todd ?

[mcoliver]

Julien, click HERE.

[Julien Boit]

Thanks Oliver

[achard]

where's blazing blake?

A. Lee come back to home

[Rob Boudrie]

The team selection process was established because of the desire to have a fair and objective selection criteria that could be applied without any perception of favoritism.

Another approach would be to simply state the the USPSA Board will select the team, either directly, or by delegating the selection authority to a specific individual or committee. If the priority was simply "winning" and not "documentable inpartiality", this a very valid approach to choosing a team. The problem is that unlike a typical corporation or team which has "owners", our organization *IS* the members, and a slot on the team takes on an aspect of both a "prize to be won" and a "job one is hired to do."

My question is - how would the members, and team contenders, feel about such a system? Remember that this call could, in may cases, come down to a matter of opinion and not everyone would necessarily agree on the choices - especially when it comes down to differentiating between the last team member selected and the next person on the list.

The board will meet this fall (probably August), and I expect we will come up with a team selection criteria to announce for the next WS.

Comments and thoughts welcome.

[gmshtr]

This WS was the first time that Area matches were part of the selection process. I personally feel that this was a mistake. For WSXIII, the Nationals results were the deciding factor. Actually, if people shot the correct Area matches, it still came down to the Nationals results. If this year's WSXIV team were chosen using XIII's process, then the teams would've looked like this:

Open - Todd Jarrett (3), Max (5), Chris Tilley (10), Adam Poppelwell (10)

Limited - TGO (2), Mike Voight (5), Me (6), Taran (6)

Production - Dave (2), Matt Mink (9), Dave Olhasso (9), Milford Lovett (9)

Junior - ????

The numbers represent the total of the best two out of three placements three nationals before the WS.

HMMM, interesting stuff. Makes me wonder how the next US Team will be chosen.

[Chriss Grube]

I haven't researched the criteria but seems pretty F'ed up to me that TGO is not on there. Won Limited Nats, but doesn't get on the team? I always thought that if we were sending a team it was to go and kick ass and take names, which means you send the best you have. I think a panel could come up with the top shooters in each division without it taking more than about 5 minutes.

[Jake Di Vita]

I'm with Chriss...The World shoot team should be the best of the best.

Here is the team I would like to see (If I leave anyone out no offense I love ya all )

Open - Todd, Jerry, Max, JJ

Limited - TGO, Phil, Taran, Blake

Production - Dave, Matt, Petros, Angus

[BritinUSA]

I don't think Team Selection should be based on 'opinion' - the winner of the World Shoot is not chosen by opinion, they win because their score was higher.

I think the Team should be picked based in ability, it's just the criteria that needs adjustment. Not everyone can make it to a Nationals and if you base the entire selection process on it then someone can miss the team due to a DQ or a gun malfunction.

Similarly if you give too much weight to an Area match where perhaps not all the top players are present then this can skew the results.

What USPSA needs is a constantly adjusted Nationals Placing (like PGA has) where the scores of the current year are added to last years scores but last years scores are factored back, ie. they are less important than this years.

That way each month USPSA could publish a list of the top guys/girls and everyone could see where they are and calculate what they need to do to break into the top four... It's just math, we just need a formula for it.

[zhunter]

I don't think Team Selection should be based on 'opinion' - the winner of the World Shoot is not chosen by opinion, they win because their score was higher.

I think the Team should be picked based in ability, it's just the criteria that needs adjustment. Not everyone can make it to a Nationals and if you base the entire selection process on it then someone can miss the team due to a DQ or a gun malfunction.

Similarly if you give too much weight to an Area match where perhaps not all the top players are present then this can skew the results.

What USPSA needs is a constantly adjusted Nationals Placing (like PGA has) where the scores of the current year are added to last years scores but last years scores are factored back, ie. they are less important than this years.

That way each month USPSA could publish a list of the top guys/girls and everyone could see where they are and calculate what they need to do to break into the top four... It's just math, we just need a formula for it.

That is a great way to do things!!!! It works in golf, there is some grumbling, but it works!

[bgary]

That's an interesting idea.

Ill talk to our resident data-genius (Rob) and see if he can pull that sort of thing out of the USPSA database on an ongoing basis. My bet is he can. If so, then... Ill bring it to the Board as a possible approach for selecting the next WS team.

Question: If rankings like this were used, when should the "selection date" be? The end of the shooting season in the year before the WS? The date on which the WS slots are available? The date on which WS slots must be returned for registration? Something else?

I ask because all of those have implications and potential "gaming opportunities"... i.e., what if you are 5th in the rankings, but you know there is a match just before the cut off that none of the 1st-thru-4th shooters are going to. It is an arguably-legitimate, but arguably-unfair way to "game" your ranking just before the cut-off.

Thoughts?

Bruce

[Rob Boudrie]

I don't think Team Selection should be based on 'opinion' - the winner of the World Shoot is not chosen by opinion, they win because their score was higher.

I think the Team should be picked based in ability, it's just the criteria that needs adjustment. Not everyone can make it to a Nationals and if you base the entire selection process on it then someone can miss the team due to a DQ or a gun malfunction.

The question is should "ability" be evaluated by a pre-published formula, or by experts looking at all available data when it is time to field a team and making the decision?

If winning is the goal, no formula announced in advance will cover every possible contingency. Professional sports teams looking to hire the best do not set a "performance formula" and then make offers based strictly on the numbers ... but they do look at player's numbers when making their offer decisions. There is a difference.

There is no system which more likley to create the team with the highest chance of winning which will beat "have the board or it's designees select the team." Using such a system will allow for discontent with the decisions made by the team selection committee, and also deprive the top players of a "contest" where the "winner" gets a team slot. That may not be a reason not to do it, but is something we must be aware of.

As to the "standings formula" ... I challange anyone who claims this will solve the issue to come up with a complete system which can handle every case we have ever, or might ever, encounter.

Rob

[Rob Boudrie]

Ill talk to our resident data-genius (Rob) and see if he can pull that sort of thing out of the USPSA database on an ongoing basis.  My bet is he can.  If so, then... Ill bring it to the Board as a possible approach for selecting the next WS team.

Pulling the data out is the easy part for matches scores since we added the "webfile upload" to EzWinScore.

The hard part is coming up with the formula.

[gmshtr]

Well the old process of best two out of three Nationals finishes before the WS worked out pretty well at WSXIII, didn't it? The US Standard Team finished in the top four spots, the Open in the top 10, and the last minute Production team in the top 10.

If we want shooters who can perform under the most extreme competitive environment, why wouldn't we use the Nationals as the measuring block? Addtionally, if the best shooters don't have the time to attend the Nationals, how are they going to take off twice as much time for a World Shoot?

Aw hell, it doesn't matter, we're going to beat up on everyone anyway!

[zhunter]

"Picking" a team is NEVER going to make everyone happy.

The movie Miracle , SERIOUSLY pissed off the US Olympic Committee, but I believe we won the GOLD that year. I literally just got goose bumps typing that!!!! I remember where I was!!!!!

[BritinUSA]

Well just off the top of my head...

First add a factor to the match that reflects it size/complexity...

Nationals = Percent x 2

Area Matches = Percent x 1.5

State Matches = Percent x 1

Drop the lowest score of five, if you shoot ten matches that meet the criteria then you can drop your two lowest scores.

Add up all the percentages, ie.

Nationals = 85% x 2 = 170

Area 1 = 90% x 1.5 = 135

Area 2 = 80% x 1.5 = 120

State Match 95% x 1= 95

Total 520

Divide by the number of matches (4) = 520/4 = 130

Then add a last years total which is first divided by a factor (say 2 for example), so if last year our shooter scored 120 then we would add 120 / 2 = 60

for a Total of 190, the higher the points the higher the ranking.

If a shooter DQs or cannot attend a Nationals they can make it up by shooting other matches. The factors for Nationals/Area/State can be modified, I just picked these numbers to show the example.

You could remove State Matches from the criteria if you wished, it's just an example.

[Flexmoney]

Well the old process of best two out of three Nationals finishes before the WS worked out pretty well at WSXIII, didn't it? The US Standard Team finished in the top four spots, the Open in the top 10, and the last minute Production team in the top 10.

If we want shooters who can perform under the most extreme competitive environment, why wouldn't we use the Nationals as the measuring block? Addtionally, if the best shooters don't have the time to attend the Nationals, how are they going to take off twice as much time for a World Shoot?

Aw hell, it doesn't matter, we're going to beat up on everyone anyway!

The method Phil posted, using the last couple of Nationals seems solid.

Something of interest...forum member Dowter put together a ranking list a while back...based purely on Major match performance. It worked. He hasn't been around here for about a year though. He also quit updating the list (he added every Major match as it happened)...I think, because there wasn't a bunch of interest in his list (too bad...it rocked).

Here is a link to the thread that he started on it: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...topic=2630&st=0

His website doesn't appear to be up and running anymore though.

[BSeevers]

Nationals and maybe World shoot should count the most or all.

Areas not so much since they don't all shoot them . I don't think they mean enough.

The fact Jerry B got blocked out once and NO TGO in 2005!!!! means the system is flawed

[BritinUSA]

You can't really count the World Shoot as most shooters have to be picked by their RD in order to compete. It would be hard for a new guy to break in, he won't qualify for a World Shoot until he's actually shot one.

You have to add other matches other than Nationals, if you just use a single event and someone gets DQ then they are done, there is no way that the can qualify (Just like Jerry).

Applying a factor to the Area matches allows them to be included in the calculation but their importance is reduced when making the rankings.

[BSeevers]

I see but how about something like last World Shoot winner/high division gets a extra point or something.

I still think Areas don't mean as much(heck some GM's don't show up) but maybe give them a much lower point ranking than Nationals. I saw examples listed and reacted that they were ranked too important IMO. And yes I think States/Sectionals should mean nothing.

Something needs changed. We all know TGO should be on the Team.

[B.J. Norris]

I'm not sure of the best possible system, but while/before complaining about the Standard team, please take the time to look at who is on the US Open Junior team, then check their finish at last year's Nationals.

[Nik Habicht]

I'm not sure of the best possible system, but while/before complaining about the Standard team, please take the time to look at who is on the US Open Junior team, then check their finish at last year's Nationals.

Looking at Nats results, it appears you and Bryan Jones got hosed. I'm assuming that Chris and Lee are too old at this point to still be considered juniors......

[B.J. Norris]

Not under IPSC rules, however Chris is on the full Open team, so it doesn't really matter.

[hopalong]

you want to get more interest in the points series?????

USE the top spots for it....Period and then you will have some participation....

Make that the only way to make the team (notice I said TEAM) for all time starting this year (still time for everyone to get in it).

the off years will still be included in the selection process (average the results from the years there is not a World shoot (that keeps the interest up)

Pretty simple.... there is already a format there..(points series).. just dangle the carrot infront of the Rabbit ......(World Shoot Team spots)

Just my .02 cents worth....

Hopalong

[AikiDale]

Any of the systems mentioned so far would ensure a good team. We have enough great shooters not all of them can go. To put together a team of the best shooters for a world match I would suggest a qualification match using IPSC rules, targets and equipment a couple of months before the world shoot. The USPSA World Trials Invitational. Invitees would come from the pool of significant finishers in the major matches of the previous two or three years, with each AD being able to nominate a shooter or two just so we don't miss that blazing new talent. Top finishers get the World Shoot slots.