Which powder now?

[Stuck in C]

I'm trying to work up a limited major .40 load for my CZ STD IPSC. I'm using MG 180g CMJ's and loading to 1.140 (longer seems to misfeed every once in a while). With Titegroup I have to use 4.8-4.9 grains; book max is 4.7 at 1.126 OAL. The load is quiet, soft, accurate and no smoke (no exposed lead with these bullets) BUT I see a few flattend primers (maybe one in 20 or so fired). So I think I should try a different powder.

I looked on Maass's site and searched here, and have come up with either WST or Universal Clays. Anyone have any thoughts on which one is better? Would WST be softer shooting?

And yes, I would like to try VV 320 or 330, but you can't buy it around here and by the time you pay shipping and a $20 hazmat fee it costs double what Win or Hodgden powders do.

[D.Hayden]

What's you're chrono speed at this charge? SOmehting does not sound right here.

Usually when I shorten the OAL, the speed is faster. I can't see how 4.8 isn't making Power Factor.

Is this a really old barrel (fired alot)?

[Stuck in C]

4.4 gr = 875 fps; 4.6 gr = 902 fps; 4.8 gr = 930 fps. Averages of 5 shot strings. Temp=50 F. Didn't record the SD but it was good, maybe about 10? This is a new gun; about 200 rounds of WWB factory ammo through it and about the same number of reloads so far.

4.4 gr at the same length in my stock G35 gives me a power factor of 169-about 938 fps.

[D.Hayden]

Sorry, I worded that 180' off... it seems to me that newer barrels do need a little more powder.

New, tight barrel = slower. At least from my meager sampling.

Even my newer Glock 35, needs 4.6 to 4.7 of TG to make major.

Maybe someone with a CZ can share thier experiences witth new CZs?

Maybe just put a few hundred more through it, try the chrono again, see if it's loosened up?

[Carlos]

I understand about V V in your area; sure its great powder but if its hard to find or you have to pay haz-mat, then its worthwhile to look for a suitable double-based powder.

I have 2 of the Standard IPSC .40s & am loading .40 for them to the limit of the mag - about 1.160 to 1.170 so that they feed int he SV as well (2 brands of .40; one ammo OAL). What I use is out for you (V V and TG). Where next?

You want something fast but also safe, clean and available. There was discussion here (including mixed results) with Hodgdon's Universal Clays for .40 Search on Universal. What was found seems to be: load it to "normal" .40 SW lengths (about 1.135" OAL for best performance. Apparently at longer lengths or at minor charges, it becomes inconsistent and dirty but may be viable at the Hodgdon recommended OAL (www.hodgdon.com).

One powder that I have been meaning to try is the single based flake powder solo 1000. Another fast option (though it is quite dirty) is HP-38/W231 that might work even at the 1.160" to 1.170" length that the STD IPSC takes .

D.C. Johnson

www.shootersparadise.com

EDIT: just checked hodgdon's website (VERIFY this data before use):

COL: 1.125"

180 grian Jacketed Bullet, UNIVERSAL clays XXXX grains, 1046 fps 33,400 PSI

[benos]

Although this may not be an answer you're looking for, Tightgroup is such a safe, low pressure powder that I don't think I'd worry about what the primers looked like, if you're loading a reasonable amount of powder and your loads are chrono'ing somewhere near where you expect them to.

be

[ChuckS]

Hey Stuck,

You may want to go snoop around at the CZ Forum.

[kimel]

The "occassional" flattened primer may mean a metering inconsistency or maybe a difference in case manufacturer.

Are all the flattened primers maybe from one type of case?

Have you checked your powder measure to make sure it is throwing consistent charges?

When I adjust my powder measure I always throw 10 charges into the pan and check to see that they are consistent. For instance, if you are throwing 4.8 gr then 10 charges should weigh out at 48.0gr. Be sure you throw those charges into a case and not just by disconnecting the operating rod and throwing the bar back and forth. An improperly adjusted Dillon (at least a SDB and a 550B) will throw inconsistent charges at times.

Hope that helps!

[Stuck in C]

After looking over these posts, I'll stick with the 4.8 gr Titegroup load for now. During load development I weighed about every 5th charge-they were consistent within the 0.1 grain display of my electronic scale. The cases are all Winchester-some new, some once fired. I'm still curious about my original question though: WST or Universal Clays? It sounds like WST may be the way to go if I decide to try something different.

[Guest Larry Cazes]

WST is quite a bit faster than Universal Clays. I load .40 with WST regularly but have tried Universal as well. As expected based on the relative burn rates, WST shoots much softer and flatter with 180gr bullets. The feel is very similiar to N320 but it costs 40% less at Powder Valley. I haven't really found a good use for Uiversal myself but I understand that there are some members here who like it alot. Consequently I have just given away 5lbs. after unsuccessfully trying to sell it.

[Carlos]

Agree w/ what has been posted - particularly BE; TG just does not seem to cause problems (as stated above, I use it in my Standard IPSC) even at USPSA major w/ 180s.

Alternatively, I have not tried WST but see it mentioned here often & it is certainly available pluss it seems a little more up to date than Winchester 231.

Q. for you: not using Federal primers are you? They flatten easily & show false pressure signs at book load levels.

[MoNsTeR]

Don't worry about it.

If you must worry, try WSF.

[Stuck in C]

Yes, I'm using Federal primers, for the probably stupid reason that the Federal match primers work outstandingly well in my precision rifle and .45 Bullseye loads, so I just bought Federal non-match primers for my USPSA pistol loads as well.

These forums are great for learning, especially for those of us out in the hinterlands. Thanks everyone, and especially BE for setting up the forums.

[Flexmoney]

I flatten my primers when I seat the suckers...sometimes.

I like them to be "well below flush".

[Carlos]

A-HA! Federal primers; they fall flat easier that a souffle' (and about as soft as a souffle to boot). The Standard IPSC has enough ooomph (technical gunsmithing term) to set off even the superhard S&B primers (look at your CZ factory test target) so I see no reason to be using Federals; those primers are telling you lies about pressure.

The excellent, medium-hard Winchester small pistol is what I use in my gun & Titegroup book loads never flatten those.

I suppose if one were really concerned about avoiding the occasional flat primer, one could switch to the hard CCI primers, but that is sorta like "fixing that pesky engine noise by turning up my car stereo" trick. Regards,

C.

[Kevin Kline]

On Hodgdon's website, I think their test load was 4.7gr of TG out of a 4" barrel was getting 970fps something?? with a 180gr at 1.135 or 1.125 OAL. You should be OK with 4.8. Plus, have you chrono'd them? They might be where you want them or faster than what you think they are. Chrono them to make sure, there is no other way to determine if they're where you want them.

Also, different guns and barrels give different results. I was shooting my Sig 226ST and had loads about .1 or .2gr over what the normal load was for making minor and chrono'd them to find out they were about 60-70fps slower then the minimum (125PF) needed for minor, let alone making minor. I shot the same load out of my G35 and it jumped to 131 PF. Huge difference. That's the first time I've seen such a difference between guns and barrels. I've seen small differences and thats the reason I loaded .1-.2 more, but that was a BIG difference.

[Stuck in C]

Kevin-see the 3rd post above for chrono info. I went with 4.8 grs, and I think Carlos is right, the flat primers are from using Federal's. When I run out of those I'll try Winchesters.

[Squishy]

I have loaded 40 major with V V 320, clays, universal clays,wst,231 ,tight group V V 310. I load only with clays or V V 320 for IPSC major. If I could't get these I would load with wst. Universal clays has to much recoil and muzzle flip. 231 way to dirty. V V 310 is to fast of a burn (pressure).

[KimberA8]

On Hodgdon's website, I think their test load was 4.7gr of TG out of a 4" barrel was getting 970fps something?? with a 180gr at 1.135 or 1.125 OAL. You should be OK with 4.8. Plus, have you chrono'd them? They might be where you want them or faster than what you think they are. Chrono them to make sure, there is no other way to determine if they're where you want them.

Also, different guns and barrels give different results. I was shooting my Sig 226ST and had loads about .1 or .2gr over what the normal load was for making minor and chrono'd them to find out they were about 60-70fps slower then the minimum (125PF) needed for minor, let alone making minor. I shot the same load out of my G35 and it jumped to 131 PF. Huge difference. That's the first time I've seen such a difference between guns and barrels. I've seen small differences and thats the reason I loaded .1-.2 more, but that was a BIG difference.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am somewhat new to reloading so I pretty much stick to the book. How did you determine 4.8 grns TG was safe when the book says 4.7 is max?

I am looking for an IPSC load for a 5" STI Edge using 180 gr FMJ.

Any guidance from anyone on a load that is close to but safely over the PF requirement for a 5" barrel in .40 with a 180 gn FMJ with Titegroup would be appreciated.

[KimberA8]

After looking over these posts, I'll stick with the 4.8 gr Titegroup load for now.  During load development I weighed about every 5th charge-they were consistent within the 0.1 grain display of my electronic scale.  The cases are all Winchester-some new, some once fired.  I'm still curious about my original question though: WST or Universal Clays?  It sounds like WST may be the way to go if I decide to try something different.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How did the load work for you?

I am looking for an IPSC load for a 5" STI Edge using 180 gr FMJ and Titegroup. I am new to reloading and pretty much stick with the book so am un-clear on when it is safe to exceed the book on the powder load.

[Stuck in C]

My load 4.8 gr Titegroup, 180 gr MG CMJ, OAL 1.135 is working fine in my gun. Results might be quite different in a different gun. As noted above, I had to exceed the book powder weight slightly in order to reliably make major. For comparison, my Glock 35 gives the same power factor with the same components and OAL with 4.3-4.4 gr Titegroup. Always start well below maximum load and work your way up, chronographing as you go and look for signs of high pressure.

Warning: 0.40 SW is a small, high pressure cartridge and as such is very sensitive to OAL. At maximum loads it doesn't take much bullet setback to cause an overpressure situation.

Many people load to a longer OAL for .40. I don't know if you can do this with an STI Edge, but 1.135 is the maximum my magazines will take (both the Glock and CZ). Loading so long that the bullet contacts the rifling can also cause high pressure. Many custom barrels are chamber bored to prevent this.

Some signs of high pressures: cratered primers, pierced primers, flattend primers, bulged brass, large change in velocity with small change in powder weight (velocity vs. powder weight curve suddenly goes non-linear), large difference in velocity from the book values, bulged barrel, split barrel, gun blows up, you wake up dazed in the emergency room, etc.

[Carlos]

"but 1.135 is the maximum my magazines will take (both the Glock and CZ)."

Whoa! I am loading out to 1.160" to 1.170" (depending on bullet used) in Standard IPSC. It uses proprietary magazines that tolerate LONGER .40 loads than can be used int he small frame CZ .40s like CZ 75B in .40, the CZ-40B (AKA Colt Z40), the CZ 85 Compact .40, etc. I would load a lot longer than 1.135 if you are shooting a Standard IPSC. Try 1.160" & you will notice lower pressures.

Regards,

D.C. Johnson

www.shootersparadise.com