What's the practical difference in burn rates?

[jerryz]

I've been using WIN231 for all my .45 (usually 230gr but also 185) and 9mm. Of course, it's now almost impossible to find. I've had a lot of suggestions as to where I can find other powders, and, I appreciate the help. But, I have no experience with most of the suggestions, so, that means I'll have to spend lots of time an money with trial and error.

In order to narrow down my alternate choices, I'd like to know how these other powders compare to win231. So, let me ask this: What is the practical difference with different burn rates?

I would assume, if I use a faster burning powder (say, N310) it should produce "snappier" feeling loads. I would assume that slower (WSF) would have a feel more like a shove than a snap.

I would also assume that by using a slower powder would be less affected by variances in charge weight and therefor would give more consistent velocities. That is, if my charge weight varies by 0.1 grain on a 6 grain load, that's less, as a percentage, variance than 0.1 grain variance on a 4.0 load.

Or, does each powder have it's own personality, and, there are no conclusions we can draw?

Thanks all

[noylj]

A smaller amount of a fast powder can give you less snap. A larger amount of a slower powder can give you more snap. Generally, for action pistol, most aim for a heavy bullet and a low velocity pushed by a very fast powder--unless a compensator is being used.

Burn rate is dependent on the "closed bomb" test used. If you check reloading manuals, you will find that a powder that is "faster" than powder x (usually seen as needing a smaller charge to produce the same velocity) will be slower than powder x in another cartridge. If you compare three different burn rate charts, you will find powders listed in three different orders. Just like manuals, the details are in the test method.

Next, I can only assume it is me, but recoil that I feel is almost all the weight of the slide. I don't notice the subtle differences so many can feel, but I can notice a lighter slide and the effect it has on MY perceived feel of recoil. Thus, felt/perceived recoil is rather subjective.

Unique is a powder that meters "indifferently." However, out to 75 yards, the targets never show any effect from the variation in charge weight--a good load will be equally good whether individually weighed or simply metered at +/- 0.2gn.

For a handgun shooting 6 MOA or more (and how many of us really have a handgun that does better than that?), NONE of the rifle "find tuning" actions will have any effect. Also, if you go to an exterior ballistics calculator, and plug in the different muzzle velocities, you'll see that they all hit to virtually the SAME point out to 75 yards (and then you add in your handgun accuracy only being 6 MOA at best, and you'll see that the worries just don't apply. Talk to Bullseye shooters (where accuracy is everything) and you'll find that it is the basic load, the gun and trigger control, and the operator that determine accuracy and not much of anything else.

For .45, powders that are almost always accurate include 231/HP38, Bullseye, Red Dot, AA2, Unique, and Solo 1000. These powders tend to be accurate across a wide range of charge weights and bullet weights. Powders right next to them on a burn rate chart will, in my experience, not be as accurate.

Thus, you have to do some testing if you really want accuracy. For action pistol, IMO, you are better off with "good enough" and spend your time improving speed and control.

Edited May 25, 2015 by noylj

[Steve RA]

I'd certainly add Clays to the list of accurate .45ACP powders.

[jerryz]

Completely agree on the heavier bullet. I bought a bunch of 185 thinking it would be more controllable, but, quickly found out that to make major, I had to have a load that was pretty uncomfortable to shoot. And also agreed that I'm not likely to put all the bullets in the same hole, and, 75 yard courses in USPSA are pretty darn rare, so, I understand "practical accuracy."

And, thanks for the clarification of the burn rate chart differences. I always wondered about the discrepancies.

I can't find win 231, so, I have to change, since I'm just about out. But, esp with hazmat fees, I want to buy 4 or 8 lb, and, I was hoping for at least a direction of where to start before I spend $100+

Another shooter recommended N310, which is around Bullseye for rate, and, even better, I actually found a 4# bottle of it. According to your comments, this sounds like a good fit.

I will make note of the powders you two listed as I surf the gun shops and internet. Thanks a lot for the clarification and help.

[zzt]

HP-38 is identical the 231, if you can find any. You may have better luck if you decide you don't have to use the same powder for both calibers.

For 45ACP, here is a list of fast, clean powders that are extremely accurate, and return consistent single digit SDs across multiple chrono sessions:

VV N310: meters like water, burns clean, low smoke and flash. It is quite temp sensitive.

WST: very much like N310, but less expensive, much less temp sensitive, and more commonly available. You may not like the smell when fired.

Hodgdon Clays and Alliant Clay Dot: small flake powder that meters well and also burns cleanly. Superbly accurate in all bullet weights and is a fav of many Bullseye shooters.

Alliant e3: if you can find any of this, you'll probably never use anything else for 45, 40 or 9mm, as long as you are not shooting open. It's about as perfect as you can get.

Solo 1000: perfect, but slower, so you will use more powder and produce more recoil. I use it for major loads behind a 200gr bullet.

You can also use any of the faster burning shotgun powders such as Red Dot, Green Dot, TiteGroup, etc. I've not tested them.

For 9mm, I'd personally stay away from the fastest powders line N310 and WST.

[jerryz]

Thanks zzt. I came across your post somewhere else on this forum and found it very helpful. Actually, that's the reason I bought the N310 (and, I can't find anything else). I will keep this list for when I'm surfing the stores or net.

I did give up on using the same powder for 9mm and 45. I was thinking it would be easier because I would not have to make a powder change on my Dillon. But, then I realized that I have completely different tool heads for every caliber on my 550. Duh.

Can you explain a bit about temperature sensitive. I know pressures vary with the temp, but, in practical terms, esp for .45acp, what can I expect? Living in Minnesota, we have 9 months of excellent ice fishing and 3 months of not-so-excellent ice fishing, so our temperatures do fluctuate a bit.

Thanks

[zzt]

N310 gets sluggish at low temps. For example, a load that goes 767fps (avg) at 72 deg will slow to 733fps @ 56 and 705fps @ 41. Accuracy stays good, but you have to be aware of this if you want to make major in the Winter.

By contrast, e3 powder exhibits no temp sensitivity at all, at least none that I can detect. One of my Minor 40sw loads goes 844fps at 85 deg and 844fps at 39 deg. I did a second 10-shot string at 39 and got 841fps (avg).

WST gives highest velocities between 65 and 75 deg, then slows a little as the temps increase or decrease from there.

[captain037]

http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloaders/equivalents.asp

Maybe this will help.

[jerryz]

Hey, thanks.

[superdude]

You might find this of interest, too.

http://38super.net/Pages/Gunpowder.html

[noylj]

Clays is NOT accurate for me, over a wide range of charge weights and bullet weights. In fact, it tends to have an accuracy range of about x.y +/- 0.1gn. Then, in shooting 10 5-shot groups, it is not as consistently accurate as the powders I mentioned.

This doesn't mean that your findings are not correct in your gun, as all I can report is what I find in my guns.

[Steve RA]

25yd group by my raggedy old Taurus - 4.2 gr of Clays with 200gr LSWCs.

[Snapcap]

HP-38 is showing up more and more. HS-6 makes a good 45 ACP load too for practice I think.

and yes, as mentioned, Clays (straight Clays) is a good powder for target loads. It and unicorns are easy to find too.

[jerryz]

Great info. Thanks. Now with more options maybe this powder drought will be survivable.

[pete579]

I've been scouring the forums looking for similar information and while I have learned a thing or two, I have also found myself with new questions, but most threads are long dead. This one, while also helpful, still leaves me wondering about one powder in particular because I've yet to spot it on a burn rate chart and has peaked my interest. Alliant BE-86. Does anyone have info on it or a chart that lists it? I'm trying to find a powder that gives good performance for 38 Special in a 2" bbl. I've been using TG and recently tried 700X because one chart listed it as slightly faster burning, but with poor performance in this application, I tried looking it up again and found it listed lower, so I then compared a few charts and the confusion set in.

Edited August 18, 2015 by pete579

[GregJ]

I picked up N310 last year, as I too was running low of W231. I did not like it for SS Major. It took a lot of powder to get close to major. IIRC it took near or over the posted max charge. I have been running WST for some time, and it works well. Could meter better, but good enough. When my stock gets to the point of replenishing, I will be going to something else.

[zzt]

Pete, BE-86 is about the same speed as Unique. I don't think you would like it for a 2" barrel. Other powders in the TG/700X burn rate range are Clays, Clay Dot, Red Dot, Extra-Lite, and Competition.

[pete579]

Thanks zzt. TG has been working well in the 2" (38), once I got my data straight. I had just about decided buying 700X was a huge mistake until I tried it in my 45 just for kicks, turns out I'm loving it there , but in a 2" revolver I was less than amused. It worked fairly well in my 4" (38) but I like TG even more there. I'm just left wondering if there's a better powder for this particular application (2" 38). I'm running Berry's 125gr FP (38) btw.