Gun Geek Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Looking for some decent all around closeish work 223 ammo. Wolf just doesn't excite me (laquer, steel, etc). So I've been scanning the sites in search of something else. S&B seems to be the next step in quality, not much more in price and it can be restuffed. Both Cheaperthandirt and Centerfiresystems (which is right up the road from me) offer it at about $3.75 - $3.90 per box of 20. Wolf is about $2.25 - $2.45per box of 20. I'm going to take a tac rifle class and run about 1500 rds through a 16" Bushy carbine. I'm hoping the ammo will be somewhat clean and well behaved. Any experince with the S&B (Yes I searched and didn't find any freseh direct posts about S& Same question about 9mm if you care to weigh in on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 I've shot a couple of thousand rounds of S&B .223 with zero problems. It's reliable, as accurate as most comparable bargain ball ammo. I only use it for punching paper, though, because even though the box claims it's M193-spec ammo, the jacket is copper-washed steel. That means it won't fragment at any velocity (if you're concerned about terminal ballistics). It should easily make minor PF in a 14.5 inch gun. Another concern is that it might not be a good idea to use on steel, especially where it's dry and brush fires are a potential hazard. The steel jacket can make some impressive sparks on a steel plate, especially at night! I don't think it will actually damage any steel target rated for rifle fire, though, but it's something to consider. I've shot a ton of S&B .45ACP. It's my 230gr ball of choice when the price is comparable to other stuff. Reliable and again, as accurate as any other similar 230gr ball ammo. I've shot a few hundred rounds of S&B 9mm with zero problems as well. For what you get (for the pistol ammo), it's hard to find a better bargain. The .223 is good for what it is. Whose class are you doing? I'll be in a Pat Rogers and a (repeat of) Louis Awerbuck this summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Geek, Second what Rhino said about steel core. Tewlman and Jeremy had to buy new ammo in the middle of 3Gun nationals in 2003 because their S&B stuck to a magnet. Nobody wants you to shoot their steel with it, and though it won't penetrate, it will damage the surface. For paper, it works fine, and if I didn't want to use the same loads all year, I would use it locally. If you are willing to pay $3.90, and buy in bulk, you should be able to get Winchester, PMC, or Remington for that price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted February 25, 2005 Author Share Posted February 25, 2005 This will be my second class from these guys. I took tactical pistol from them. Their primary focus is tactical stuff, but they are smart enough to make the 1st classes very good for a wide range of use. They cover the basics very effectively and those skills translate to lots of disciplines. They are good guys and they really seem to want to help. I was very happy with the pistol class, so I'm going for the rifle class. http://www.warriormindset.com/Classes/TacRifle.htm The guy that runs this is a bit of a character. His name is James Yeager. Man can he drive a Glock. He starts training by taking a Glock out of his holster and throwing it down on the concrete floor (unloaded), then gets a file passes it and the Glock around the room and tells you to file on his Glock slide to show you how hard it is. He then dares 1911 guys to do the same. His point is that guns are tools for shooting, not for hanging on the wall. You can imagine where things go from there. I wonder if he'll slam a an AR on the ground! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 "I wonder if he'll slam a an AR on the ground!"GunGeek If he slammed mine on the ground, I'd attempt to kick his ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted February 25, 2005 Author Share Posted February 25, 2005 Geek,Second what Rhino said about steel core. Tewlman and Jeremy had to buy new ammo in the middle of 3Gun nationals in 2003 because their S&B stuck to a magnet. Nobody wants you to shoot their steel with it, and though it won't penetrate, it will damage the surface. For paper, it works fine, and if I didn't want to use the same loads all year, I would use it locally. If you are willing to pay $3.90, and buy in bulk, you should be able to get Winchester, PMC, or Remington for that price. Hmmmm.... Didn't you and I just have a similar conversation. I did not know about the steel in the S&B jacket. Winchester, PMC, and Remington seem to be in short supply. My understanding is that much of that production is going to Iraq. Don't see much of it here in town. If I had a choice I would use my own loads as well. They won't allow reloads in the class, however. Their experince is that reloads tend to jam because the guys don't do a good job of working up and testing the load. They found that people would take up handloading just to save $$ on the class. They would make crappy ammo and disrupt things with jam after jam. Guess I need to keep shopping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Geek ... if you're looking for .223 bargains, you should frequent AR15.com in the ammunition forum. Those guys are up to speed on prices and availablity of just about everything. You should be able to find AE223, PMC, or UMC, USA, or Ultramax in the $3-3.25 per box in 1000 round cases if you look around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted February 25, 2005 Author Share Posted February 25, 2005 "I wonder if he'll slam a an AR on the ground!"GunGeekIf he slammed mine on the ground, I'd attempt to kick his ass. It damn well better be his. I bet he'll do it with true POS AK, pick it and proceed to blast. Just to prove the point. Knowing him, it will probably be full auto, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted February 25, 2005 Author Share Posted February 25, 2005 Geek ... if you're looking for .223 bargains, you should frequent AR15.com in the ammunition forum. Those guys are up to speed on prices and availablity of just about everything.You should be able to find AE223, PMC, or UMC, USA, or Ultramax in the $3-3.25 per box in 1000 round cases if you look around. Rhino - Steel this saturday at silver creek! Sorry, drifted my own thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Rhino just jarred my memory a little, www.natchezss.com , that is where you will find the answers you seek, but shipping can be a factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 I wish I could come! I'll be at AtlantaCC (Indiana) helping with setup for our 3-Gun on Sunday! You guys should come to our 3-Gun on Sunday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Rhino, We are going to KAPS opener on Sunday and shoot through twice. I will be shooting Limited first, then making the debut of my new 610 for another Revolver classifier. What is the schedule for your 3Gun matches? We go to ORPC, and NTPS, so your not out of our realm of possible travels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 I wish I could come! I'll be at AtlantaCC (Indiana) helping with setup for our 3-Gun on Sunday!You guys should come to our 3-Gun on Sunday! Rhino, Shoot Steel Saturday Morning! Set up 3Gun Saturday Afternoon, maybe Sunday morning if you don't get finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFoley Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 I wish I could come! I'll be at AtlantaCC (Indiana) helping with setup for our 3-Gun on Sunday!You guys should come to our 3-Gun on Sunday! Rhino, Shoot Steel Saturday Morning! Set up 3Gun Saturday Afternoon, maybe Sunday morning if you don't get finished. Now that's progressive! I knew there was something special about you. SOund advice Rhino. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 fomeister ... we shoot our 3-Gun matches on the 4th Sunday of each month. http://www.atlantacc.net Dale ... it sounds fun, but I don't think I can be back by 10:00 on Saturday, especially since you probably don't start shooting until 10:00! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted February 25, 2005 Author Share Posted February 25, 2005 I hear the rhino blink at the call... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 here are some other good ammo sources ... outdoormarksman.com wholesalehunter.com ammoman.com natchezss.com wideners.com midway (sometimes) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickster Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 Always looking for bargain basement ammo, I used to use the S&B exclusively for a couple years as my top of the line bargain basement match ammo. Then some rumor starting going around about how the steel jacket ate up bores in match barrels pretty fast so I started testing out other ammo and eventually switched over to the Federal red box. Not very happy with the 200 yard accuracy of the red box after shooting a couple of cases of it in different guns over the past year and half I have switched back to the S&B. At least with it I can get 3" groups at 200 yards. I'm hoping the things I heard about the S&B eating up bores were just that... rumors. Anybody know for sure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 25, 2005 Share Posted February 25, 2005 I can't attest to S&B now but there were several BAD lots out there3-4 years ago. This isn't hear say for me. I had one detonate in my Colt flat top and runied a bolt. Buddy of mine had a detonation and it just about ruined the whole rifle, only thing we saved was the lower and trigger and stocks. Saw a M4 detonate and it was a total loss, except for butt stock and flash suppresor. The importer was cool and the rifles were replaced, and of course the ammo was replaced ....with more S&B, needless to say, not one of use kept the ammo. Since then I have been a WW or Federal guy for cheep burner ammo and for matches just my reloads....after all I know whats in them. Once again it isn't a slam on S&B, this was a while ago, but once bit...ahh...er...blown up, twice shy! KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buff87 Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 I bougt a case a couple of years ago and it sucked big time for accuracy. I use PMC for anything up to 100 yards and Federal match (69 Sierra) for anything further out. Same impact at 200 yards if I need it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 Better stuff than the S&B can be found for a lot less than $3.75/20. Besides, the steel jacket makes it an unwelcome guest at a lot of matches. Myself, I use SMK69 handloads for short distance stages and SMK77 handloads for long distance stages. They go to same POI at 200 yards on purpose. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmccrock Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 All the ammo makers have bad batches. In the late 90's, Winchester had problems with several lots Q3131. See Ammunition FAQ for details. My experience echoes their's. I do not buy Q3131 now (noting that Q3131A is altogether different). But I buy Winchester. S&B is generally ok, but I understand not wanting to be bit again. Seems like last time I saw Federal American Eagle, it was around $3.49/20 and I would buy that before S&B at a similar price. Check your zeroes with the AE; it may run a little slower tham M193. I keep hearing "all the ammo is going to the troops" but I still see case lots at gun shows here. Not just Wolf/S&B/Silver Bear/Olympic, but Winchester and Federal M193-equivalents. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 taking a Glock out of his holster and throwing it down on the concrete floor (unloaded) I'll have to remember this the next time I get attacked by a concrete floor Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardschennberg Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 I wouldn't count on easy reloading of S&B once-fired cases. Most have a primer crimp and require a primer uniformer to swage the primer pocket. Dillon makes a very handy one that can be used with many types of cases but comes set up for .223 by default. Richard Schennberg.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasag93 Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 I have been debating on a round for my AR. I bought the Win. white box 55 FMJ from Wal-Mart. I think it cost me 7.49/40. This works out to about .20/round(including taxes). If it shoots good I will keep using it. It is readily available and pretty darn cheap. I won't be shooting alot of 3-gun for awhile, so I am not interested in buying 10,000 rounds at a time. I like being able to get the round I shoot at a moments notice. I shoot a 20" AR so PF shouldn't be an issue with this round. TXAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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