REF or not (activator popper stops partway down)

[motosapiens]

http://vid960.photobucket.com/albums/ae87/motosapiens/hicap_pickside_zpslzwfrysp.mp4

In case it's not obvious in the grainy uploaded vid. The activator popper that is visible right at the start is hit low with a shot, moves an inch or two and then stops with the cable tight. The second shot made it continue falling. I didn't notice it while shooting, but the RO and another shooter did. Looks like we needed a little more slack in the cable.

I know when I worked with a VERY experienced RM (acting as CRO) at nationals, he called REF on situations where the activator cable hung up and slightly delayed a clamshell on our stage, changing the timing and presentation.

What say you?

[PKT1106]

How do we know the shooters ammo was sufficient for that round to knock down the popper?

[motosapiens]

How do we know the shooters ammo was sufficient for that round to knock down the popper?

That's a reasonable question, especially if the popper had just wiggled but ended up back in the original position. What actually happened is the popper moved a couple inches (far enough to start falling on its own if the cable hadn't been there) and was only being held up by the too-tight activator cable.

IMHO, if a popper clearly stops partway down, that should be a no-brainer reshoot. In this case, it may not be obvious to an observer that it really is hung up. A scoring zone shot would almost certainly have sent the popper down with enough force to activate the drop-turner, but a low shot, while sufficient to knock the popper over, was NOT sufficient to knock the popper past the cable activation point.

I think the best solution is probably to just put more slack in the cable.

Edited March 24, 2015 by motosapiens

[ktm300]

Was it the first shooter on the stage in the match or did the stage change over time?

[bofe954]

I'd say REF. If you'd left the popper dangling it'd be an easier call, and if the RO didn't notice it I think you'd be SOL. I'd say the popper fell and just didn't activate the prop which is a REF.

The other argument would be that the popper just didn't fall, and since you shot it down you lost the opportunity for a calibration and reshoot.

If you'd have left it alone, you'd have forced the issue since the popper would not have been able to be calibrated since it was dangling by the activator wire, and it would have been more obvious that the issue was the prop not activating vs the popper not falling.

Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all

competitors. Range equipment failure includes, the displacement of

paper targets, the

premature activation of metal or moving targets, the

failure to reset moving targets or steel targets, the malfunction of

mechanically or electrically operated equipment, and the failure of

props such as openings, ports, and barriers.

[ktm300]

If you'd have left it alone, you'd have forced the issue since the popper would not have been able to be calibrated since it was dangling by the activator wire, and it would have been more obvious that the issue was the prop not activating vs the popper not falling.

I would not ever leave an activator alone unless I was sure it could not go down. Just my luck, RM shows up and his shot takes it down. I lose that target and whatever it activated as well.

[PKT1106]

I see it both ways, but because the second shot knocked it down immediately, I would be hesitant to call it REF.

Shooting this game, there have been poppers hit on the edge or low that do not fall and when called for calibration, they fall immediately and the shooter loses the challenge.

Edited March 24, 2015 by PKT1106

[gng4life]

Let's not confuse an REF with popper calibration. I would look at 4.6.1 and say it was falling so there is no issue with that. Calibration comes in where it does not fall or at least that much. If that cable was not attached, it would have fallen.

I would have called an REF.

[bofe954]

I'm assuming the poster is being honest when he says:

What actually happened is the popper moved a couple inches (far enough to start falling on its own if the cable hadn't been there) and was only being held up by the too-tight activator cable.

If that is true then this:

RM shows up and his shot takes it down

can't happen. There is no calibration because the popper fell, it is held up by the cable, per the poster. If that's true it's a REF.

The only issue is that it's hard to see. The shooter has incentive to shoot it down and if the RO doesn't see it, or just can't tell it happened then the stage is over.

Edited March 24, 2015 by bofe954

[motosapiens]

I'd say REF. If you'd left the popper dangling it'd be an easier call, and if the RO didn't notice it I think you'd be SOL. I'd say the popper fell and just didn't activate the prop which is a REF.

Well said. In retrospect, with video, I'd say it was *probably* REF, but it would have been a difficult call to make on the fly since the partially-down state of the popper wasn't obvious and didn't last for long. For sure, if the RO didn't see it, you can't really argue for REF afterwards.

thanks for helping clarify this in my mind.

[Poppa Bear]

In the video it is apparent that the popper failed to fall enough to activate the turner. That said in the heat of the stage I would have also taken another shot to knock it down because the movement was so slight that it appeared to still be standing rather than leaning slightly backwards. This is a situation where it would be difficult to call a REF due to the second shot taking it down so quickly after the first shot failed to. Was it a REF? Yes. SO unless someone brings it to my attention I am likely to score the stage as shot due to the popper going down. If it is brought to my attention and I feel that the popper did not function as designed I would call for a reshoot after adjusting the cable to give it a little more slack.

[Gary Stevens]

When you say hit low what are we talking about? Low in the calibration zone or somewhere below the calibration zone.

[PKT1106]

When you say hit low what are we talking about? Low in the calibration zone or somewhere below the calibration zone.

From the video and the description, it looks like somewhere down the neck of the popper, not in the calibration zone.

[gng4life]

When you say hit low what are we talking about? Low in the calibration zone or somewhere below the calibration zone.

It looks like low in the calibration zone. If you slow it down and watch it, it appears to hit the left lower area of the calibration zone.

It's hard to tell, I thought I saw the hit but it's tough to be sure with the quality of the video. The first pic is before the shot, the second is after the shot:

Edited March 24, 2015 by gng4life

[bofe954]

Doesn't really matter where the hit is if the popper fell right?

[motosapiens]

When you say hit low what are we talking about? Low in the calibration zone or somewhere below the calibration zone.

That's a good question, and I don't know, but I'm not sure it matters since the popper moved enough to fall (it was past the tipping point) and it was only being held up by the tension in the activator cable.

[2MoreChains]

Whoever reset the DT inserted the cotter pin too far into the hole. I'm having some new ones made with a stop that only allows you to insert the retaining pin just enough to hold up the DT.

And in retrospect, we probably should have had a little more slack in the cable. Damn, who set up that stage, hmmm?

[gng4life]

Whoever reset the DT inserted the cotter pin too far into the hole. I'm having some new ones made with a stop that only allows you to insert the retaining pin just enough to hold up the DT.

And in retrospect, we probably should have had a little more slack in the cable. Damn, who set up that stage, hmmm?

Happens to us all. I had the same problem several times with the DT targets. The ones you are having made, is that custom or is a commercial company going to offer them for sale?

[2MoreChains]

Local machinist that also shoots USPSA. I think he basically takes a 1.5" long 1/4" dia steel rod and thins down the last 3/16" +/- on the end with his lathe to the right diameter. That little 3/16" nub goes into the hole but the rest of it that is still 1/4" dia keeps it from being over inserted.

[2MoreChains]

But you can also go low-tech by wrapping a bunch of paster tape around the cotter pin to keep it from being over inserted...

[gng4life]

Local machinist that also shoots USPSA. I think he basically takes a 1.5" long 1/4" dia steel rod and thins down the last 3/16" +/- on the end with his lathe to the right diameter. That little 3/16" nub goes into the hole but the rest of it that is still 1/4" dia keeps it from being over inserted.

And another reason why I need a lathe

Thanks

[motosapiens]

And in retrospect, we probably should have had a little more slack in the cable. Damn, who set up that stage, hmmm?

lol, believe me, i'm not complaining, just trying to learn. It was probably right at some point and then something else got fixed that affected it.

[frag316]

I think it's a REF, because the popper started to fall and other range equipment failed to let it do so. That's on the stage, not on the competitor.

[Sarge]

REF for sure.

[PKT1106]

REF for sure.

I am very interested to hear your expanded perspective on the REF. I consider your Sage-like wisdom and extensive experience a boon to these forums.