Sandbagger123 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 What are the rules when it come to backup guns? i have both a 5" and 6" 2011 limited guns. I was thinking of using the 5" as my main gun and the 6" as the backup. one time i was shooting my 6" at a local match and asked the MD if i could switch to the 5" as a test to see which i did better with. He said its ok to go 6 to 5 but going to 5 to 6 would be an unfair advantage due to the increased sight length. So is this how it works? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm300 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 5.1.7.1 The substitute handgun satisfies the requirements of the relevant Division. 5.1.7.2 In using the substitute handgun the competitor will not gain a competitive advantage. I guess he could be saying it gave you a competitive advantage but why then would you start with the other gun? I don't think it should be an issue unless you just wanted to change for the 100 yard standards course, then switch back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Actually, switching back and forth is illegal, unless the gun with which you start the match becomes unserviceable or unsafe. You should be able to use either as a back-up, because both meet the requirements of Limited, but ONLY if your primary breaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 You can't just switch because you want to. The primary pistol has to be unserviceable or unsafe. The few requests I have had were related to out of spec ammo and a pistol change did not help. I might question a person who has one or two stages left and goes from a 5" to a 6" if one of those stages is like a 50 yard standards stage...oh wait, we don't ever do those anymore. But yes, the RM has to approve the change. If you have a stickler RM, you might have to find someone with a 5" to borrow. Best answer is keep the guns maintained and you ammo checked and you won't need a backup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandbagger123 Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 Actually, switching back and forth is illegal, unless the gun with which you start the match becomes unserviceable or unsafe. You should be able to use either as a back-up, because both meet the requirements of Limited, but ONLY if your primary breaks. Sorry i was not more clear. i only intend to use the backup if my other goes down and not switch back and forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ickus Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Use your 6" as primary Gun and 5 for back up ( 5.7.7.2 ) and you'll be going by the book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Use your 6" as primary Gun and 5 for back up ( 5.7.7.2 ) and you'll be going by the book x10, unless the timer shows that you perform better with the 5" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Use your 6" as primary Gun and 5 for back up ( 5.7.7.2 ) and you'll be going by the book +1...for me, I did better with the 6 than the 5 but you should do your own timer runs to find out how you do and how you perform with each in matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeRush Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 One problem I see with 6" primary 5" backup is PF. Ammo loaded right for the 6" may not make major in the 5". Conversely, unless you have very unusual barrels anything that makes it in the 5" should make it in the 6". I don't think you would have an issue getting approval to switch, assuming primary is having issues and you can demonstrate that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 --Snip-- Best answer is keep the guns maintained and you ammo checked and you won't need a backup. That's easy to say, but it's really a throwaway piece of advice. Unless you constantly do detail inspections--including using a jeweler's loupe on any part subject to stress and with a potential to fail--the balance of probability is that something will break you did not foresee in a normal maintenance cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 --Snip-- Best answer is keep the guns maintained and you ammo checked and you won't need a backup. That's easy to say, but it's really a throwaway piece of advice. Unless you constantly do detail inspections--including using a jeweler's loupe on any part subject to stress and with a potential to fail--the balance of probability is that something will break you did not foresee in a normal maintenance cycle. Completely untrue, but if that is what you need to get another gun, go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Use your 6" as primary Gun and 5 for back up ( 5.7.7.2 ) and you'll be going by the book What's your reason for that? If both guns meet the division requirements, you should be good to go. It's difficult to argue competitive advantage in this case, I think, and the burden would be on the RM/MD to argue for competitive advantage, rather than on the competitor to argue against it, in the case of a broken primary gun. And your cited rule has nothing to do with using a backup (the cited rule and preceding paragraphs deal with reshoots for squibs and the like). Did you mean 5.1.7.2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 (edited) The problem is the rule is a "judgement" call by the RM. Not only are some RMs not skilled shooters who know the difference, or not. Some at the National level hardly ever shoot at all. The RM has no "burden" to prove, just his opinion. I guess you could take it to Arb (which I am not even sure you can do for a gun change). Edited March 25, 2015 by MarkCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 The problem is the rule is a "judgement" call by the RM. Not only are some RMs not skilled shooters who know the difference, or not. Some at the National level hardly ever shoot at all. The RM has no "burden" to prove, just his opinion. I guess you could take it to Arb (which I am not even sure you can do for a gun change). +1... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Has anyone ever had an RM say no for a genuinely broken gun? I broke a sight at nationals and switched from a standard 1911 to one with a rail (in L10/hider). RM (john amidon) didn't blink. I can't imagine troy or carl or any of the other major match RM's I've dealt with freaking out about it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Has anyone ever had an RM say no for a genuinely broken gun? I broke a sight at nationals and switched from a standard 1911 to one with a rail (in L10/hider). RM (john amidon) didn't blink. I can't imagine troy or carl or any of the other major match RM's I've dealt with freaking out about it either. You're right, the RMI guys you mentioned are extremely fair and knowledgeable, they would make the right call. This is more of a worry at LII matches where the RM can be appointed and not certified. This is where you may run into issues - not saying they are not knowledgeable also but they may just rule another way. Like Mark said, it's a judgement call. I would like to hear of anyone who was denied a gun change and why also. My personal story - I was at a LIII match and lost a frame screw nut. My backup was similar but had barrel holes and the gun change was a non-issue. Just had to re-chrono and off we went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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