When/Where to Unholster

[motosapiens]

For being f-ing proud to be a rules guy, you have continually provided your opinion as if it were a binding rule. I've never disagreed with your claims of common sense. We have some people here who seem proud to DQ people when a rule doesn't clearly call for it, instead of using it as a teaching or training moment instead.

I'm reading Rule 2.5 right now. It does not mandate the use of a loading/unloading station, even if one is provided, period. It does however, clearly state that such a station, if provided, would be outside the area allocated to the USPSA match, therefore the parking area can't be "inside the area allocated to the match."

No one can argue your opinion about what you say is safe. It's a valid opinion. But we are discussing the rules. You can have rules for your private club, too, of course, but you can't enforce them as if they are USPSA rules if they aren't.

Why do you refuse to read the rule right after the one you are so hung up on? Here it is again:

2.5.2 Where no Unloading/Loading station is provided, a

competitor who arrives at a match in possession of a loaded firearm and

proceeds immediately to a match official for the express purpose of

safely unloading the firearm shall not be subject to disqualification per

the provisions of Rule 10.5.13

Reading this rule makes it clear to me that if the competitor does not proceed immediately to a match official to get unloaded he would be subject to DQ under 10.5.13 which says: 10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the

Range Officer.

Still doesn't really say where 'at a match' is.

I know that's common sense in your tribe, but out here ranges are bigger.

Edited March 18, 2015 by motosapiens

[Sarge]

I am a rules guy and pretty fuc%#*&ing proud of it.t the sign in table that is fine by me.

So go by the actual rules that are printed in the rulebook, and stop making up your own rules and being proud of enforcing those non-existent tribal rules.

Nobody has really said much about simply asking the MD when/where you can handle your gun. i.e. when is the match over? Is it ok if we use the pit for practice now? etc..

Nik brought that up and it was mentioned earlier in the thread. It's a good plan. When in doubt, ask.

Another good plan, remember rule #1. Don't lie in wait for newbies and try to figure out ways to dq them. Not saying you do that, but lack of clarity regarding what part of the range is considered part of the USPSA match is not conducive to a good time or to safety. Many ranges in the west are big enough that there is plenty of other stuff outside the handful of bays used for a USPSA match. If you want to consider the parking lot part of your match venue, make sure it's clear to everyone.

Tribal rules? Name one of my tribal rules.

No I don't lie in wait trying to DQ newbies. But I do watch what goes on at my match more than many MD's probably do at theirs. If a newbie does something wrong or a veteran shooter does something wrong I try to keep the results the same. Unless of course you can quote me a rule that says newbies get afforded special treatment when it comes to DQ's. I have looked and I can't find it.

I shoot at 4 local clubs that are all laid out about as differently as possible. It seems everybody who shoots them knows where and when you can handle your guns. When somebody runs afoul of the accepted practice of using the designated safety areas to handle their gun the result is pretty universal.

[MAC702]

For being f-ing proud to be a rules guy, you have continually provided your opinion as if it were a binding rule. I've never disagreed with your claims of common sense. We have some people here who seem proud to DQ people when a rule doesn't clearly call for it, instead of using it as a teaching or training moment instead.

I'm reading Rule 2.5 right now. It does not mandate the use of a loading/unloading station, even if one is provided, period. It does however, clearly state that such a station, if provided, would be outside the area allocated to the USPSA match, therefore the parking area can't be "inside the area allocated to the match."

No one can argue your opinion about what you say is safe. It's a valid opinion. But we are discussing the rules. You can have rules for your private club, too, of course, but you can't enforce them as if they are USPSA rules if they aren't.

Why do you refuse to read the rule right after the one you are so hung up on? Here it is again:

2.5.2 Where no Unloading/Loading station is provided, a

competitor who arrives at a match in possession of a loaded firearm and

proceeds immediately to a match official for the express purpose of

safely unloading the firearm shall not be subject to disqualification per

the provisions of Rule 10.5.13

Reading this rule makes it clear to me that if the competitor does not proceed immediately to a match official to get unloaded he would be subject to DQ under 10.5.13 which says: 10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the

Range Officer.

Why do you refuse to discuss this with me like an adult? We are arriving at different conclusions, obviously, but it is childish to tell me that my opinion is because I'm not reading. I have used material from all of 2.5, to include 2.5.1 and 2.5.2 throughout my participation in this thread.

After you quoted me here, I added this thought on edit, which perhaps clarifies why I have my different opinion than yours: Its reference to Rule 10.5.13 would apply only when a competitor entered that portion of the range [allocated to the USPSA match] with his loaded firearm, if the station had been provided. It therefore can't apply before the competitor enters that portion of the range [because the rules say the loading/unloading station must be outside that portion of the range.] Ergo, so would be the parking area. I also added: I can definitely see how handling a firearm at the car can be in violation of a club rule, and penalized in accordance with the bylaws of the club, but I do NOT see how a competitor can be DQ'd from a USPSA match for it, a match that he has already completed prior to going to his car and violating the club rules.

Edited March 18, 2015 by MAC702

[Sarge]

For being f-ing proud to be a rules guy, you have continually provided your opinion as if it were a binding rule. I've never disagreed with your claims of common sense. We have some people here who seem proud to DQ people when a rule doesn't clearly call for it, instead of using it as a teaching or training moment instead.

I'm reading Rule 2.5 right now. It does not mandate the use of a loading/unloading station, even if one is provided, period. It does however, clearly state that such a station, if provided, would be outside the area allocated to the USPSA match, therefore the parking area can't be "inside the area allocated to the match."

No one can argue your opinion about what you say is safe. It's a valid opinion. But we are discussing the rules. You can have rules for your private club, too, of course, but you can't enforce them as if they are USPSA rules if they aren't.

Why do you refuse to read the rule right after the one you are so hung up on? Here it is again:

2.5.2 Where no Unloading/Loading station is provided, a

competitor who arrives at a match in possession of a loaded firearm and

proceeds immediately to a match official for the express purpose of

safely unloading the firearm shall not be subject to disqualification per

the provisions of Rule 10.5.13

Reading this rule makes it clear to me that if the competitor does not proceed immediately to a match official to get unloaded he would be subject to DQ under 10.5.13 which says: 10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the

Range Officer.

Still doesn't really say where 'at a match' is.

I know that's common sense in your tribe, but out here ranges are bigger.

FYI my club is not a little podunk 5 bay gravel pit. It is a fairly big complex but it's pretty easy to tell when you are at my match. It's the right day, at the right time and you park in view of the registration area.

You are really going to argue what "at a match" means? I might have to surrender to you on this one pal.

[Sarge]

For being f-ing proud to be a rules guy, you have continually provided your opinion as if it were a binding rule. I've never disagreed with your claims of common sense. We have some people here who seem proud to DQ people when a rule doesn't clearly call for it, instead of using it as a teaching or training moment instead.

I'm reading Rule 2.5 right now. It does not mandate the use of a loading/unloading station, even if one is provided, period. It does however, clearly state that such a station, if provided, would be outside the area allocated to the USPSA match, therefore the parking area can't be "inside the area allocated to the match."

No one can argue your opinion about what you say is safe. It's a valid opinion. But we are discussing the rules. You can have rules for your private club, too, of course, but you can't enforce them as if they are USPSA rules if they aren't.

Why do you refuse to read the rule right after the one you are so hung up on? Here it is again:

2.5.2 Where no Unloading/Loading station is provided, a

competitor who arrives at a match in possession of a loaded firearm and

proceeds immediately to a match official for the express purpose of

safely unloading the firearm shall not be subject to disqualification per

the provisions of Rule 10.5.13

Reading this rule makes it clear to me that if the competitor does not proceed immediately to a match official to get unloaded he would be subject to DQ under 10.5.13 which says: 10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the

Range Officer.

Why do you refuse to discuss this with me like an adult? We are arriving at different conclusions, obviously, but it is childish to tell me that my opinion is because I'm not reading. I have used material from all of 2.5, to include 2.5.1 and 2.5.2 throughout my participation in this thread.

After you quoted me here, I added this thought on edit, which perhaps clarifies why I have my different opinion than yours: Its reference to Rule 10.5.13 would apply only when a competitor entered that portion of the range [allocated to the USPSA match] with his loaded firearm, if the station had been provided. It therefore can't apply before the competitor enters that portion of the range [because the rules say the loading/unloading station must be outside that portion of the range. Ergo, so would be the parking area. I also added: I can definitely see how handling a firearm at the car can be in violation of a club rule, and penalized in accordance with the bylaws of the club, but I do NOT see how a competitor can be DQ'd from a USPSA match for it, a match that he has already completed prior to going to his car and violating the club rules.

Club rules don't play a role in my match at all. They have no place per the rule book right? But just for shits and grins, yes my club has a cold range policy. You are not permitted to bring a loaded gun onto the property unless you are LE in the actual performance of your duties. So like I said a while back this works well for me since you should stop at the gate and unload at the station before proceeding. But if you forget and you drive up into the parking lot on the 4th sunday of the month between 8 and 930 and get out of your car with a range bag and belt, sorry but you are now at my match. You then have two choices. You can unload or otherwise dick around with your gun at your car and hope nobody sees you or you can come to me or another match official and tell me you need to unload and we walk over to the nearest bay and you unload. It happens damn near every match and it is not difficult. It's actually such a well understood rule that I don't recall ever DQing somebody for handling a gun in their car on the lot or for having a loaded gun while the match is in progress. It seems pretty plain to folks around here how this all works.

As a matter of fact I take that back. There once was a guy who walked up to the registration table with a mag in his Glock. When half a dozen guys told him he was not allowed to have a mag in his gun he proceeded to pull the gun and remove the mag and jack the round out of the chamber. Obviously, he had never been to a match before. I'm pretty sure I sent him packing. And he has not been back to my knowledge.

What about liability? Let's say guns are allowed to be handled at your car and somebody gets shot. Take a guess at how long before the match and the MD get blamed for allowing it.

[DagoRed]

I'm not trying to piss anybody off, just putting this out there for discussion, and want to say I'm not a MD or the an NROI certified RO or anything. I consider myself still pretty new to competition.

Regards sending a person with no prior knowledge packing for an infraction like the one who had a loaded gun and unloaded a the check in table (I'm guessing in an unsafe manner, maybe pointing at somebody?) I get it, the rules say he's dq'd. If the person shows up for the first time and nobody has talked to him right away and explained things is this the cool way to handle it or is it a missed opportunity to make somebody safer? Wouldn't it have been better to say,"hey, since you're a first time shooter you didn't know that was a dq there, how about this time you just watch us and we'll tell you all the rules as we go." It's always surprising how many people don't know that much about guns, or have not practiced something enough times for it to be routine and have good habits developed. if they're there to compete maybe it would be to their benefit to get a second chance. (maybe instead of just pointing out "hey man you have a loaded gun" somebody should have immediately grabbed them and taken them to the safe area before telling them ) I know that even as a person that has been shooting for years, when I went to my first match I was nervous. Now for me it means more careful gun handling and being sure of things before doing anything, and an RO immediately grabbed me and started explaining the basics, some people when they are nervous though get more stupider.

I know at the local club I shoot at we shoot at a special area just for us inside a larger club, therefore, at least in my mind (I'm guessing all the other guys) the whole area is the match area. we have a safe area and we either use it or have an RO check us out. I've not thought about handling at my car, it does raise a question in my mind though: if I have a CCW and want to put a loaded carry gun back on what would the right way be? wait till I drive out, pull over on side of road and put it on? Once I'm in my car aren't I in the sovereign territory of redness? (I'm actually more comfortable with mine in my console anyways and just slip it back on when I get out where I'm going) How does it work since there isn't supposed to be anywhere that you can have a loaded gun?

I have introduced three friends to competition since I started last summer, each one I explain the rules to them as I now know them, I stay with them when we get there or meet them, and take them over to check in and let them know they're a new shooter so they get their RO walkthrough (our club has new shooter field when they sign up so they would know at check in anyways).

Not attacking anyone, and not looking to make things unsafe, just curious.

Red

Edited March 18, 2015 by DagoRed

[Vlad]

I used to think this mattered a lot more until I've started seeing 300+ people gear up at their cars with 3 guns at a time without hurting themselves.

Personally, while I'm running a match, if you are a competitor un-gearing at the car you will hear from me with words including the letters D and Q. However .. if you get in your car with your gun on, drive over to one of the pits in use by the general public and then get out of your car an un-gear in a manner that wouldn't get a normal club member in trouble I wouldn't bitch about it.

What is the difference? Nil. Why am I behaving differently? Because you've proven that you have engaged your brain. We all need to use those more instead of rocking over the holly rule books while chanting rule numbers.

But that's me.

[Sarge]

I'm not trying to piss anybody off, just putting this out there for discussion, and want to say I'm not a MD or the an NROI certified RO or anything. I consider myself still pretty new to competition.

Regards sending a person with no prior knowledge packing for an infraction like the one who had a loaded gun and unloaded a the check in table (I'm guessing in an unsafe manner, maybe pointing at somebody?) I get it, the rules say he's dq'd. If the person shows up for the first time and nobody has talked to him right away and explained things is this the cool way to handle it or is it a missed opportunity to make somebody safer? Wouldn't it have been better to say,"hey, since you're a first time shooter you didn't know that was a dq there, how about this time you just watch us and we'll tell you all the rules as we go." It's always surprising how many people don't know that much about guns, or have not practiced something enough times for it to be routine and have good habits developed. if they're there to compete maybe it would be to their benefit to get a second chance. (maybe instead of just pointing out "hey man you have a loaded gun" somebody should have immediately grabbed them and taken them to the safe area before telling them ) I know that even as a person that has been shooting for years, when I went to my first match I was nervous. Now for me it means more careful gun handling and being sure of things before doing anything, and an RO immediately grabbed me and started explaining the basics, some people when they are nervous though get more stupider.

I know at the local club I shoot at we shoot at a special area just for us inside a larger club, therefore, at least in my mind (I'm guessing all the other guys) the whole area is the match area. we have a safe area and we either use it or have an RO check us out. I've not thought about handling at my car, it does raise a question in my mind though: if I have a CCW and want to put a loaded carry gun back on what would the right way be? wait till I drive out, pull over on side of road and put it on? Once I'm in my car aren't I in the sovereign territory of redness? (I'm actually more comfortable with mine in my console anyways and just slip it back on when I get out where I'm going) How does it work since there isn't supposed to be anywhere that you can have a loaded gun?

I have introduced three friends to competition since I started last summer, each one I explain the rules to them as I now know them, I stay with them when we get there or meet them, and take them over to check in and let them know they're a new shooter so they get their RO walkthrough (our club has new shooter field when they sign up so they would know at check in anyways).

Not attacking anyone, and not looking to make things unsafe, just curious.

Red

yes the gun was pointed in an unsafe direction (at the MD and several others). And no second chance there. If you are just shooting cans behind the barn you should still keep a gun pointed away from people. That is literally a no brainier. I'm not risking somebody getting hurt or killed just to keep from hurting somebody's feelings.

I was nervous for my first match too. However, I did glance at the DQ portion of the rule book prior to attending and I knew when I was 8 years old not to point guns at people

[motosapiens]

FYI my club is not a little podunk 5 bay gravel pit. It is a fairly big complex but it's pretty easy to tell when you are at my match. It's the right day, at the right time and you park in view of the registration area.

You are really going to argue what "at a match" means? I might have to surrender to you on this one pal.

I'm not arguing about what 'at a match' means at *your range*. Just saying it may not be accurate to assume everyone else is the same, or every other club is the same. Some clubs may have separate parking areas for separate parts of the range. Some clubs may share 1 parking area for everything. As long as everyone knows what the situation is, I don't think the particulars of that situation really matter that much.

[motosapiens]

I've not thought about handling at my car, it does raise a question in my mind though: if I have a CCW and want to put a loaded carry gun back on what would the right way be? wait till I drive out, pull over on side of road and put it on? Once I'm in my car aren't I in the sovereign territory of redness? (I'm actually more comfortable with mine in my console anyways and just slip it back on when I get out where I'm going) How does it work since there isn't supposed to be anywhere that you can have a loaded gun?

If I'm carrying that day, I just leave my loaded carry gun holstered in the car and don't worry about it. If your club is the sort that cares about stuff like that, I would ask for clarification for your particular range.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Right or wrong, clear or not clear, specified in writing or not,

from this discussion it would seem prudent to not touch

any firearm anywhere at a match except at the safe table

or under supervision of an RO.

If we are seen handling a firearm, we just might get sent home.

Message received, loud and clear.

[MAC702]

Deleted

Edited March 18, 2015 by MAC702

[Sarge]

Right or wrong, clear or not clear, specified in writing or not,

from this discussion it would seem prudent to not touch

any firearm anywhere at a match except at the safe table

or under supervision of an RO.

If we are seen handling a firearm, we just might get sent home.

Message received, loud and clear.

And that is the underlying message in the rule book.

[MAC702]

Why have a rule book if we can just enforce underlying messages?

[gng4life]

Really guys?? Come on, let's get off this and go on. The bickering back and forth is what almost got the Rules section shut down. If we don't police ourselves, it will be done for us.

[PKT1106]

Since one can only handle a firearm in a designated safety area or under the direct supervision of a range officer, and that there can be no handling of ammunition at the safety area, the only conclusion that we can draw is that both firearms and ammunition can only be handled under the direct supervision of an RO. This leads to cold ranges. The only time you will be under the direct supervision of an RO is when you are in a hot bay(verifying if a gun is safe to use, for example) or at the line/box/stage making ready.

If you are carrying and there is no designated unload/reload station, in order to avoid breaking these rules, you need to go immediately to the MD/RM and notify them of your condition. They, or their RO representative, will escort you to a designated area, presumably a bay, to make your condition cold and not be subject to a DQ. On the flip side, if you need to load back up, the MD/RM should perform the same function and take you to a designated area to make your condition hot again to immediately leave the range, or immediate match area. They would then escort you to your vehicle so you could be on your way. If you come back to the match area after loading back up, you would still be subject to a DQ for having a hot firearm at the match. Make sure you are ready to leave the range/match area when you load back up. Spectators would be subject to the same conditions if it was learned they were in a hot condition.

Sounds like what is really the argument is what signifies the start and ending of a match? Everyone will have a different opinion and I don't think there is a "right" answer. For me, the match starts before I leave the house. I know I can't have my match gear in a hot condition when I get there and that there are provisions for making my carry safe when I get there. So, I make provisions to make sure I am in compliance with the rulebook. For me, the match ends when I know I have no further business in the match bays/match area or with any of the duties related to the match (admin, tear-down, old guys saving the world, etc) and I am left to get in my vehicle to go home or am going to a completely different, unrelated bay to practice something AND approved by the match director, if the USPSA match has control of a set of bays for the day.

One thing the rulebook can't cover is what people call "common sense". In my experience, common sense isn't common because someone, somewhere else does it a different way and has been doing it that way all their life. The only thing the rulebook can do is control behaviors. Making ready is a behavior and can only be done under the supervision of an RO. Gun handling is a behavior and can only be done in a safety area or under the supervision of an RO.

All of this is really just to say that there are rules that cover when a person can handle a firearm and provisions for carry and they don't include "in your vehicle". Just like in law enforcement, ignorance of the rules is no excuse. Past experience or "we have always done it this way" doesn't cut it either. These mindsets usually lead to false self-confidence that leads to complacency. That is when accidents happen.

I want us to remain safe and I want us to remain cordial and help each other. Sometimes these do not mesh because of our unique experiences that lead us to think our way is the best way. It does not specifically say that USPSA ranges are cold or what starts and ends a match, but working together, we can help each other be safe and in rule compliance and avoid bad feelings that get in the way of the spirit of the game.

[Sarge]

Why have a rule book if we can just enforce underlying messages?

Why have a rule book when you don't read it?

[MAC702]

The mature response I've come to expect

Why have a rule book if we can just enforce underlying messages?

Why have a rule book when you don't read it?

Now there's the mature response we've come to expect. If you actually read this thread, you'll see who actually cites and discusses actual rules instead of just telling people what they insist they say, or worse, what they insist they meant instead of what they say.

[Sarge]

Really guys?? Come on, let's get off this and go on. The bickering back and forth is what almost got the Rules section shut down. If we don't police ourselves, it will be done for us.

you are so right! The walls most certainly do have ears.

I'm done flogging this poor dead horse

[WillM]

THIS

[Southpaw]

If you are carrying and there is no designated unload/reload station, in order to avoid breaking these rules, you need to go immediately to the MD/RM and notify them of your condition. They, or their RO representative, will escort you to a designated area, presumably a bay, to make your condition cold and not be subject to a DQ. On the flip side, if you need to load back up, the MD/RM should perform the same function and take you to a designated area to make your condition hot again to immediately leave the range, or immediate match area. They would then escort you to your vehicle so you could be on your way. If you come back to the match area after loading back up, you would still be subject to a DQ for having a hot firearm at the match. Make sure you are ready to leave the range/match area when you load back up. Spectators would be subject to the same conditions if it was learned they were in a hot condition.

How many have actually seen this done after a match where there's a whole line of shooters in an empty bay with an MD/RO one at a time watching shooters load up their CCW and then getting escorted to their vehicles? I've never seen this done and I'm sure lots of shooters around here regularly carry.

I'm not commenting on what the rules say or proposing a solution, just saying this sounds like fantasy to me and is never done in reality even though it is in the rule book. Easiest solution is a load/unload table like pictured above and I believe Sarge said earlier that they have one at his range, but most don't from what I've seen.

[PKT1106]

If you are carrying and there is no designated unload/reload station, in order to avoid breaking these rules, you need to go immediately to the MD/RM and notify them of your condition. They, or their RO representative, will escort you to a designated area, presumably a bay, to make your condition cold and not be subject to a DQ. On the flip side, if you need to load back up, the MD/RM should perform the same function and take you to a designated area to make your condition hot again to immediately leave the range, or immediate match area. They would then escort you to your vehicle so you could be on your way. If you come back to the match area after loading back up, you would still be subject to a DQ for having a hot firearm at the match. Make sure you are ready to leave the range/match area when you load back up. Spectators would be subject to the same conditions if it was learned they were in a hot condition.

How many have actually seen this done after a match where there's a whole line of shooters in an empty bay with an MD/RO one at a time watching shooters load up their CCW and then getting escorted to their vehicles? I've never seen this done and I'm sure lots of shooters around here regularly carry.

I'm not commenting on what the rules say or proposing a solution, just saying this sounds like fantasy to me and is never done in reality even though it is in the rule book. Easiest solution is a load/unload table like pictured above and I believe Sarge said earlier that they have one at his range, but most don't from what I've seen.

Yes, I know what the "easiest" solution is. I am merely offering a different solution for those places that don't have the station yet and still be within the spirit of the rules.

Just because it's not done or isn't regularly done doesn't mean it can't. That is the "this is the way we have always done it" line of thinking. If you are sure shooters regularly carry, but never see them unload or reload, what are they doing?

[Bkreutz]

I just unload my CCW on the road before I get to the range, I steer with my knees.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I unload my CCW on the road before I get to the range, I steer with my knees.

That sounds safer than unloading while seated in your parked car???

[motosapiens]

I just unload my CCW on the road before I get to the range, I steer with my knees.

Where do you put your beer?