Soon to be new shooter - Need guidance (Long)

[Fredlegentil]

Hi Everyone,

Warning !!! Long thread !!!

This is my first post (just introduced myself earlier).

My name is Frederic, I'm French, 35 and I'm moving back to the US after just over 2 years in Hong Kong for work. I'm a permanent resident (my wife is American) so even though I can't get a CCW I can still legally buy firearms and practice the sport.

Just a little background, not that is it remotely related but I played semi-pro paintball in Europe for over a decade and won several titles. I quit playing in 2007 because of a back injury shortly before relocating to the US. I was also a French Federation Certified Referee. I miss the shooting sport, training and competition.

This is just to emphasize that even though I never trained with firearms, nor owned one I have experience with shooting sports and more importantly safety and I believe this will help in the sport.

Moving back to the US I would like to start competing in Steel Challenge, USPSA and IDPA matches depending on what is available around me but I might settle on USPSA. For now I will be in Raleigh, NC but I might end up somewhere else.

Here is my gear selection list (I know people say to wait and see what others are using but I believe I make educated decisions). So far I only purchased the Eye and Earpro:

Eyepro: I got a good deal on ESS ICE. Not only do they look good (IMO), but they are milspec (I believed that ANSI rating only would not be enough in case of a catastrophic event). I'm also wearing glasses for high astigmatism and I got the RX inset to go with them.

Earpro: Originaly I wanted Peltor tactical sport but settled on Peltor tactical 100 after seeing a review on Youtube by Mrgungear and the price was great on Amazon ($60). I wanted electronic earmuffs from the get go and for the price I believe these were much better than the Howard Leigh ($50).

Belt / pouches / holster: I will probably get a CR Speed EDC belt. It is a bit cheaper that the inner and outer system and more polyvalent since I haven't settled on a discipline yet. I know I will have to thread the holster and pouches and that is the only downside I can see. The cost is reasonable ($40 vs $90 for an I/O system). Pouches, I was thinking of going for the CR Speed doubles since it seems easier to thread. Holster will probably be Bladetech.

Gun and Caliber: I'm a big fan of the 1911 platform. I originally thought I would shoot USPSA Production / IDPA SSP (since production first feels like at natural starting point for beginner but I believe this couldn't be farther from the truth and misleading). I'm not a fan of polymer guns, I really like CZ 75 pistols (SP-01) but the limited availability made me reconsider that option. Also, I do not feel like manually lowering the hammer is a safe idea.

Shooting a 1911, I think I will go with 45 ACP. The cost factor between 9mm in production and 45 for SS / CDP is a consideration (more on that later). I might as well do it in native caliber for reliability reasons and power factor (I know the latest shouldn't be a concern for a beginner). I intend to start handloading from the get go and from what I gather, given the history, size and lower pressure involved with the caliber, this is a great place to start. I know the ammo cost will be more that 9mm or 40 S&W but I would only shoot 9mm in production and I can't shoot production with a 1911.

40 S&W seems like a good middle ground to have both the ability for minor and major as well as playing in other divisions (limited) but 1911 in 40 doesn't seem to be readily available and I believe the choice would be reduced to RIA to stay under $1,000. I also feel like major PF with 40 is being fairly close to max load so I do not feel very comfortable with that.

Being budget conscious (under $1,000) my choice would be between STI Spartan V, SA RO and RIA Rock. After some research I will probably choose a SA Range Officer in 45 ACP. Your input would be greatly appreciated.

For those who played paintball (in the old days ...), I owned several Automags and Autocockers so tuning and timing a gun and tinkering is no foreign matter to me. I watched several AGI videos on YT and ordered the 2 Walt Kuleck books to get acquainted with the platform (even if I end up with a different platform I think these would still be cool books)

I quickly compiled ammo cost and forecast to shoot about 6,000 rounds a year equivalent to an average of 2 or 3 local matches per month and no training (more on that later). Ideally I would like to stay under a $150 / month budget for ammo and entry fees.

Ammo cost breakdown (rough estimates would be as below)

Purchase from Freedom Ammo (just a starting point, I do not care for any vendor)

Reman 9mm – 21c / round - $1,260 per year - $105 per month

Reman 40 S&W – 23c / round - $1,380 per year - $115 per month

Reman 45 ACP – 30c / round - $1,800 per year - $150 per month

It is evident that 45 ACP is much more expensive than 9mm however, reloading gives me the following figures

Buy 1000 cases of once fired brass from East Coast Arsenal, reuse brass 5 times and load bayou coated bullets

9mm – 17c first round / 14c thereafter - $885 per year - $74 per month

40 S&W – 19c first round / 16c thereafter - $1,005 per year - $84 per month

45 ACP – 23c first round / 17c thereafter - $1,095 per year - $91 per month

This shows that I could reload 45 ACP for cheaper than factory reman 9mm. Granted there is an initial investment for the reloading equipment but the savings (especially in 45) offset the cost well under 2 years). I think I'm also a bit on the conservative side for the reload cost and might be able to shave of a couple cents per round.

The monthly cost spread between 9mm and 45 ACP is also less than $20 so even though shooting 45 is more expensive, it is not crazy more expensive.

Of course, these figures would change if I was to shoot 15,000 rounds or more a year haha.

In regards of training, again, paintball being my background, I'm familiar with "dry" firing and training drills. In paintball I would do dry fire drills pretty much every day at home, I would also do 2 drill training sessions (3 hours each) a week with Reball (a reusable "paintball" which would probably be the equivalent to train with airsoft for practical shooting I guess). This was the bulk of our training, the rest of the time (weekends) would be actually competing in local, national and international events (planning can quickly get busy!)> The local events became the actual live fire training (we would place in top 3 almost every time and win at least 50% of those events). At the peak of my career I would play in tournaments almost every weekend of the season and shoot about 100,000 paintballs a year (almost for free, thanks to my sponsors!).

So my thought process with this sport is to do dry fire as much as possible and possibly train with airsoft to help keeping the cost of ammo down. I would reserve the live fire for local matches.

I will be taking the NRA basic pistol course as well as the basic metallic cartridge reloading course. I will also spend time at the range before attending my first match to feel confident with my ability to be safe for me and around others!

This is it for now! Thanks to those who took the time to read this long post and for your answers and advice! Any input will be greatly appreciated!

Edited February 3, 2015 by Fredlegentil

[Ultimo-Hombre]

Welcome to the sport.

You certainly appear to have done your homework!

This forum is a great place for advice and answers. Have you had a chance to shoot a match yet? That really needs to be your starting place. USPSA and IDPA get pretty divergent quickly in regards to equipment. Check out your local scene for both and see where your interest leads you.

Have fun!

Oh, although you have a strong background in paintball, I wouldn't reccomend talking that up too much. Just focus on being new to shooting!

[Fredlegentil]

Thanks for the answer!

I will follow the advice and no more refer to my past life as a paintball player moving forward. I'm new to shooting and look forward to the new learning experience.

I haven't shot or been to a match as of yet simply because I'm still in HK (flying back on March 1st) but I'm really looking forward to it!

[trgt]

Lots of good research to get an initial sense of what you will do.

You may want to consider hitting some matches first once you get settled on an area, to see what folks there are fielding. You might find the popular divisions in that area, where you'd have lots of fun competition, might lead you to some different ideas about what division and gun you'd want to compete with. (Almost same suggestion as above)

Also some of your assumptions may not be correct regarding availability, specifically CZ for production, or 1911 in 40. Get here and look around, you might be surprised that you could do either pretty easily.

Get the double competition belt - it's not that expensive and no-one threads a CR speed pouch with a single in the loops belt :-)

Good luck!!

[Hi-Power Jack]

Warning !!! Long thread !!!

like to start competing in Steel Challenge, USPSA and IDPA

I will probably get a CR Speed EDC belt and a Bladetech holster.

big fan of the 1911. I thought I would shoot USPSA Production / IDPA SSP. I'm not a fan of polymer guns, I really like CZ 75 pistols (SP-01) but the limited availability made me reconsider that option. Also, I do not feel like manually lowering the hammer is a safe idea.

Shooting a 1911, I will go with 45 ACP. I can't shoot production with a 1911.

.40 S&W seems like a good middle ground but 1911 in 40 doesn't seem to be readily available .40 major is close to max load(I don't feel comfortable with that.

I will probably choose a SA Range Officer in 45 ACP.

I quickly compiled ammo cost and forecast to shoot about 6,000 rounds a year equivalent to an average of 2 or 3 local matches per month and no training (more on that later). Ideally I would like to stay under a $150 / month budget for ammo

and entry fees.

The monthly cost spread between 9mm and 45 ACP is less than $20, not crazy more expensive.

Fred, to save everyone time reading your post, I've condensed it for you (above):

Seems like you're planning on buying a Range Officer .45 even though you can't use it for Production, and ammo is more expensive than a 9mm.

You can use the .45 in USPSA Single Stack. And, an excellent choice, from everything I've read.

I prefer a CZ 9mm since it is cheaper to shoot and will handle all the matches you mentioned, but nothing wrong with starting with a .45.

As trgt mentioned, I'd also go (matter of fact, I did) with the double belt system.

Good luck with your first year of shooting in the USA, and welcome.

[BeerBaron]

yep, forget the EDC belt. get the CR speed double belt. They are not $90. More like $60. even if you bought it direct from cr speed in sth africa it would be less than $70 delivered!

if you like the CR pouches you can get 5 plus the belt for $200 http://www.benstoegerproshop.com/CR-Speed-Versa-Pouch-Super-Hi-Torque-Range-Belt-p/crs-combo.htm

there you go. CR speed double belt is $55. only $15 more than the EDC. plus you can use just the inner belt if you wanted to for IDPA, or just use any belt for that. http://www.benstoegerproshop.com/CR-Speed-Super-Hi-Torque-Competition-Double-Belt-p/cr-belt.htm

for pouches I'd suggest the DAA racers over the CR speed. The CR speed are $30, these are $33. for that few bux you get a lot more versatility. With spaces they handle single stack mags very nicely and later can be used with 2011 mags, CZ mags, whatever mags you like. http://www.benstoegerproshop.com/Double-Alpha-Academy-DAA-Racer-Magazine-Pouch-p/daa-racer-ds.htm

[Fredlegentil]

@Hi-Power Jack - Thanks for condensing the post, it is spot on ! I'm still going back and forth between CZ and 1911 ... I guess like many, if budget allows I would end up with both lol - I will wait to attend a few matches first before making any purchase anyway.

@trgt and BeerBaron - I mixed things up and didn't realize that the cr speed came as a system (outer + inner included) so I thought you had to purchase both separate. This makes more sens now and I will definitely go for the double belt versus the EDC, thanks for the advice!

Thanks also for recommending the DAA racers, I was looking at those and like the versatility (bullet forward / bullet out). Since I'm new, this could give the opportunity to experiment and see what I like best!

Edited February 4, 2015 by Fredlegentil

[BeerBaron]

no problem. I had a feeling you might have been thinking you had to buy 2 belts. They all come a set with inner and outer together.

for the DAA racers you'll have to buy single stack spaces to use with your 1911 mags (about $6 each) but that's the best way to do it. if you buy dedicated single stack mags they can only ever be used for single stack. the racers can be used for practically any handgun mag. The CR speed are the same. if you bought those you'd have to buy the spacers too and they are the same price.

The racers are a really good pouch. I have one rig with race masters (double the price) and in some ways I actually think the racers are better.

[kneelingatlas]

Welcome Frederic,

Sounds like a good plan although I'm concerned with your $150/month budget. Fuel and entry fees to multiple matches per month will likely consume at least half that. As far as gun choice you shouldn't have a problem getting into an SP01 for less than a quality 1911, plus factory 9mm is far less expensive than factory .45 (once you start reloading the gap closes a bit, but .45 is still more costly). That being said, I suggest anyone getting into the sport buy used; once you find a local club and ask around you will likely find a complete setup (either a CZ or 1911) available used for far less then it would cost new.

[motosapiens]

Might as well throw speculative fuel on the fire.....

There are some smart people who think that for many (most?) matches, ss minor is a competitive advantage. I'm doing a little bit of both this year, but I have the general impression so far that minor may be better for the sort of person that shoots lots of alphas. It only takes 1 or 2 standing reloads to use up the points you gained with major pf in a whole match worth of charlies.

I think kneelingatlas has some good advice. Step 1 might be to visit your local club, meet some folks, observe the match, help out, etc... You may be able to get some more specific advice, actually try a couple guns, and maybe borrow or buy used enough stuff to get going.

[Fredlegentil]

@kneelingatlas - don't tell my wife about the gas costs! I purposefully left em out of the equation . I will look into buying used, that is a good advice. As a rule of thumb, what kind of discount am I looking at buying used vs new?

@motosapiens - I will definitely visit local clubs and meet folks before considering any gun purchase. What's the etiquette in regards to trying other people's gun? (regarding ammo cost especially).

[kneelingatlas]

As a rule of thumb, what kind of discount am I looking at buying used vs new?

Here's an example: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=209440#entry2330209

Brand new a similarly equipped SP01 might cost $1,000, so that's a 20% discount; the holster is discounted even more than that.

[g17drumr]

@kneelingatlas - don't tell my wife about the gas costs! I purposefully left em out of the equation . I will look into buying used, that is a good advice. As a rule of thumb, what kind of discount am I looking at buying used vs new?

@motosapiens - I will definitely visit local clubs and meet folks before considering any gun purchase. What's the etiquette in regards to trying other people's gun? (regarding ammo cost especially).

you can try mine when you get here. (cz sp-01 shadow, i also have an STI trojan 1911 in 45) i try to shoot the uspsa match at sir walter gun club in creedmoor NC the first saturday of each month which is right next to raleigh. also www.ncsection.org has most all the monthy uspsa matches in north carolina listed

[Ultimo-Hombre]

@kneelingatlas - don't tell my wife about the gas costs! I purposefully left em out of the equation . I will look into buying used, that is a good advice. As a rule of thumb, what kind of discount am I looking at buying used vs new?

@motosapiens - I will definitely visit local clubs and meet folks before considering any gun purchase. What's the etiquette in regards to trying other people's gun? (regarding ammo cost especially).

you can try mine when you get here. (cz sp-01 shadow, i also have an STI trojan 1911 in 45) i try to shoot the uspsa match at sir walter gun club in creedmoor NC the first saturday of each month which is right next to raleigh. also www.ncsection.org has most all the monthy uspsa matches in north carolina listed

This is awesome.

Good on ya!

As far as etiquette for trying others guns;

1-Unsolicited offers like this

2- Show up to a match, introduce yourself to the match director and ask if you can hang out and learn. Be polite and happy, ask questions, offer to help out. ( when someone comes to watch they can quickly learn how to paste targets) If you do this I all but guarantee you will have multiple offers of equipment help. If you have awesome boobs even more so ?

[jmbaccolyte]

@kneelingatlas - don't tell my wife about the gas costs! I purposefully left em out of the equation . I will look into buying used, that is a good advice. As a rule of thumb, what kind of discount am I looking at buying used vs new?

@motosapiens - I will definitely visit local clubs and meet folks before considering any gun purchase. What's the etiquette in regards to trying other people's gun? (regarding ammo cost especially).

you can try mine when you get here. (cz sp-01 shadow, i also have an STI trojan 1911 in 45) i try to shoot the uspsa match at sir walter gun club in creedmoor NC the first saturday of each month which is right next to raleigh. also www.ncsection.org has most all the monthy uspsa matches in north carolina listed

This is awesome.

Good on ya!

As far as etiquette for trying others guns;

1-Unsolicited offers like this

2- Show up to a match, introduce yourself to the match director and ask if you can hang out and learn. Be polite and happy, ask questions, offer to help out. ( when someone comes to watch they can quickly learn how to paste targets) If you do this I all but guarantee you will have multiple offers of equipment help. If you have awesome boobs even more so

Luckily we all consider "awesome" to be something different. And some of us are even heterosexual women. I think it was part of God's plan so we wouldn't be fighting even more than we are. Otherwise good advice above, people!

Edited February 6, 2015 by jmbaccolyte

[Ultimo-Hombre]

@kneelingatlas - don't tell my wife about the gas costs! I purposefully left em out of the equation . I will look into buying used, that is a good advice. As a rule of thumb, what kind of discount am I looking at buying used vs new?

@motosapiens - I will definitely visit local clubs and meet folks before considering any gun purchase. What's the etiquette in regards to trying other people's gun? (regarding ammo cost especially).

you can try mine when you get here. (cz sp-01 shadow, i also have an STI trojan 1911 in 45) i try to shoot the uspsa match at sir walter gun club in creedmoor NC the first saturday of each month which is right next to raleigh. also www.ncsection.org has most all the monthy uspsa matches in north carolina listed

This is awesome.

Good on ya!

As far as etiquette for trying others guns;

1-Unsolicited offers like this

2- Show up to a match, introduce yourself to the match director and ask if you can hang out and learn. Be polite and happy, ask questions, offer to help out. ( when someone comes to watch they can quickly learn how to paste targets) If you do this I all but guarantee you will have multiple offers of equipment help. If you have awesome boobs even more so

Luckily we all consider "awesome" to be something different. And some of us are even heterosexual women. I think it was part of God's plan so we wouldn't be fighting even more than we are. Otherwise good advice above, people!

Friendly fire!

Same team! Not meant to be anything other than positive.

Anyone who comes out to a match is awesome!

[motosapiens]

My wife thinks I have awesome boobs since I started lifting twice a week. I tried to explain to her that we dudes don't call them that.

[motosapiens]

Anyone who comes out to a match is awesome!

I ironied out loud on that one, slacker. We missed you today.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

Yeah I was bummed!

Sunshine must have been nice!

Couldn't get the day off.

[SilverBolt]

I would hold off on buying your belt/holster rig until you know for certain which gun you want and which class you intend to shoot. More pluses to the inner/outer belt setup than negatives. Your reloading numbers will be off. You will not recover all of your brass. Most larger matches are "lost brass" matches which means you will not recover any of it. If you plan and budget your brass recovery at about 50% you will be close. Dry fire is very important but you need live fire practice as well.

[dauntedfuture]

Slow down speedy! All you need is a pistol and 3-5 mags with a way to carry them, nothing has to be fancy. I would certainly start by looking to see what matches and clubs are close to you and go from there. If there is ONLY uspsa then look there, if there is ONLY IDPA then look into that. In either case a production gun is an easy way to start and is the least costly to get into. 9mm is still the least expensive ammo out there from the factory. You also need to look into the gun laws of the state you are moving to and see what you can buy and or own.

A Glock or M&P is a great place to start. 1911's are not as user friendly and require a little more to keep going, they are also more expensive.