Best carbon copy solution for score verification

[furyalecto]

What appears to be the easiest/best carbon copy/paper solution for shooter scores for bigger matches.

(RO duplicates scores to paper for competitor?)

[wgnoyes]

We have a form that exactly duplicates the appearance and order of the data on the android/nook summary screen. That way, the RO only has to follow an almost mindless, and therefore less error-prone, pattern-matching exercise to copy the numbers to the corresponding blanks on the scoresheet. Printed on 2-part NCR paper, match keeps the original, competitor gets the yellow copy. It's in powerpoint.

practiscore lvl2-3 stage summary scoresheet.pptx.zip

[ZackJones]

I'm pretty sure it was JC Wren that mentioned the website www.carbonlessondemand.com as a good place to get them printed.

[ChuckS]

Rio Salado used carbon-less score sheets for Area 2 until the went electronic. Try contacting them at riopractical.com

[Jim Norman]

Were we to do this, we would probably opt for the single sheet per whole squad version,

Name, Stage, Date/Time RO-Shooter initials

A-B-C-D-NS-M-NPM-Proc-Time-HF

You can fit at least 10 on a page, probably 12. If you need more for a larger squad, start at the BOTTOM of the add-on sheet and work UP. that way you have the sheet still bound together for the next squad or overrun. Just cut off the Carbon Copy for the shooter. When the top sheet is full, move to the next one, and repeat. Using an full half-size sheet as a back up for Nooks is expensive and wasteful.

Yes this should be done all the time, however at club matches it rarely does and it is equally rare (thankfully) that we need it. We tried giving each shooter a sheet to copy his info onto just so he would have a copy, simple, no carbon, print them up at home. Usage level??? Well under 5%.

[pcarst]

As Chuck mentioned, we use 2-part NCR summary pages for the Area 2 match as required by 9.11.2. For level 1 matches, we no longer provide paper scoresheets at all.

Chrono sheets are also printed and a copy is provided to the competitor. The form that I created has been incorporated in the current version of EzWinScore and can be printed as needed. PractiScore currently has no method of handling chrono.

One other point is that since we are now only recording the summary info, we are able to use generic stage scoresheets and thus our printing costs have dramatically been reduced. It is also much easier to supply the stage buckets since the stage number is written on the form by the stage staff or the competitor.

Edited October 6, 2014 by pcarst

[furyalecto]

Thanks!

[wgnoyes]

Were we to do this, we would probably opt for the single sheet per whole squad version,

Name, Stage, Date/Time RO-Shooter initials

A-B-C-D-NS-M-NPM-Proc-Time-HF

You can fit at least 10 on a page, probably 12. If you need more for a larger squad, start at the BOTTOM of the add-on sheet and work UP. that way you have the sheet still bound together for the next squad or overrun. Just cut off the Carbon Copy for the shooter. When the top sheet is full, move to the next one, and repeat. Using an full half-size sheet as a back up for Nooks is expensive and wasteful.

Yes this should be done all the time, however at club matches it rarely does and it is equally rare (thankfully) that we need it. We tried giving each shooter a sheet to copy his info onto just so he would have a copy, simple, no carbon, print them up at home. Usage level??? Well under 5%.

At a major match, it is neither expensive nor wasteful, rather, it's necessary to ensure that, by the rulebook, we get a paper backup scoresheet and the competitor gets his own copy.

We did the fortune cookie scoresheets at the first GA state match we scored with this stuff. Total disaster. It was slow to enter scores on the form, as you had to figure out what went where instead of just pattern matching like on what we do now, and therefore very easy to write the wrong number in the wrong blank. "Just cut off the carbon copy"? Yeah, we did that. Pain in the ass, slowed down the stage, and shooters didn't understand to wait for their little slip of paper and instead just walked off, thinking there was no scoresheet to be had. Bottom line, you show them what they're used to, that is, a 5.5x8.5 REAL scoresheet that's mindlessly easy to fill out, and they'll wait around for it, and we still have our paper backup. Plus, if the whole thing crashed, I could keypunch into ezws from a full-sized scoresheet; I'd go out of my mind trying to do the same on the other.

Our regular club match scoresheet is a full 8.5x11 double sided sheet with 3 smaller images of the same major match scoresheet as shown above on each side. Marked stages 1-6, it's pitifully simple to use. We have a 100% usage rate for the paper scoresheets at every one of our matches. We don't have to beat anybody into submission, they just do it. They also use them to maintain their shooting order.

new lvl1 stage summary scoresheet.pptx.zip new_lvl1_stage_summary_scoresheet.pdf

(Oh, and you're missing "additional penalties" on your sample line-item scoresheet.)

Edited October 7, 2014 by wgnoyes

[Jim Norman]

Bill, I didn't attempt to be inclusive of all penalties on my short list.

What we have done at Area8 was to keep the opt copy (Original) and turn that into stats and give the ENTIRE yellow NCR sheet to the squad mom, it is their job to hand them out.

The order can be what ever you want it to be, but one 8 x 11.5 sheet for 11-12 people vs 0ne 8 x 11.5 sheet for two people is a cost savings.

[MarkCO]

There is NO rule requiring a paper back-up! Let's not get too far back into the dark ages. I understand some people have trouble with technology and cling to writing on dead trees, but it is completely un-necessary. If your scoring devices have SD cards, they can be backed-up. Any good stats person is going to continually back-up the data set and archive all of the back-ups anyway. There are multiple controls built into Practiscore relegating paper back-ups to a thing of the past, and rightfully so. Slows down the match, adds in an un-necessary error path and wastes paper as well.

USPSA Rules:

9.7.1 The Range Officer must enter all information on each competitor’s score sheet prior to signing it. After the Range Officer has signed the score sheet, the competitor must add his own signature in the appropriate place. Electronic score sheet signatures will be acceptable if approved by the USPSA President. Whole numbers should be used to record all scores or penalties. The elapsed time taken by the competitor to complete the course of fire must be recorded to 2 decimal places in the appropriate place.

9.7.7 In the event that an original score sheet is lost or otherwise unavailable, the competitor’s duplicate copy, or any other written or electronic record acceptable to the Range Master, will be used. If the competitor’s copy, or any other written or electronic record, is unavailable, or is deemed by the Range Master to be insufficiently legible the competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire. If the Range Master deems that a reshoot is not possible for any reason, the competitor will incur a zero time and score for the affected course of fire.

If you want to use paper back-ups, that is between stats and the RM, but stop insisting it is a rule when it is NOT!

[Mark R]

Here is what I use for a six stage USPSA match...includes place for reshoot on classifier. I get 2 shooters per 8.5x11 sheet. Print them out, cut them in half, pass out during registration/payment.

RCPS_Nook_Summarysx2x6.pdf

[jester121]

There is NO rule requiring a paper back-up! Let's not get too far back into the dark ages. I understand some people have trouble with technology and cling to writing on dead trees, but it is completely un-necessary. If your scoring devices have SD cards, they can be backed-up. Any good stats person is going to continually back-up the data set and archive all of the back-ups anyway. There are multiple controls built into Practiscore relegating paper back-ups to a thing of the past, and rightfully so. Slows down the match, adds in an un-necessary error path and wastes paper as well.

USPSA Rules:

...

If you want to use paper back-ups, that is between stats and the RM, but stop insisting it is a rule when it is NOT!

+ 1 billion

[ChuckS]

What about this?

9.11.2 When electronic scoring is used, once stage scoring is completed, every competitor shall be provided the opportunity to review the PDA or handheld computer display to review their stage time and score entries. At Level II or higher matches, range officers shall also create a hard copy record that includes the hit and penalty totals, time, time of day, competitor initials and range officer initials for each stage.

[wgnoyes]

There is NO rule requiring a paper back-up! Let's not get too far back into the dark ages. I understand some people have trouble with technology and cling to writing on dead trees, but it is completely un-necessary. If your scoring devices have SD cards, they can be backed-up. Any good stats person is going to continually back-up the data set and archive all of the back-ups anyway. There are multiple controls built into Practiscore relegating paper back-ups to a thing of the past, and rightfully so. Slows down the match, adds in an un-necessary error path and wastes paper as well.

USPSA Rules:

9.7.1 The Range Officer must enter all information on each competitor’s score sheet prior to signing it. After the Range Officer has signed the score sheet, the competitor must add his own signature in the appropriate place. Electronic score sheet signatures will be acceptable if approved by the USPSA President. Whole numbers should be used to record all scores or penalties. The elapsed time taken by the competitor to complete the course of fire must be recorded to 2 decimal places in the appropriate place.

9.7.7 In the event that an original score sheet is lost or otherwise unavailable, the competitor’s duplicate copy, or any other written or electronic record acceptable to the Range Master, will be used. If the competitor’s copy, or any other written or electronic record, is unavailable, or is deemed by the Range Master to be insufficiently legible the competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire. If the Range Master deems that a reshoot is not possible for any reason, the competitor will incur a zero time and score for the affected course of fire.

If you want to use paper back-ups, that is between stats and the RM, but stop insisting it is a rule when it is NOT!

It IS a rule, and you just quoted it. Thank you. Or are you really going to obtain approval from the USPSA President for each and every USPSA match you run? No prior approval, written paper scoresheets are required. Problems with technology? Hardly. Chris Wren is the technologically forward-thinking person I know and the best practiscore guy in the country, and HE won't run a major match without paper backup. And everyone stop whining about wasting paper. It's just a cost of running a match. So stop insisting it's not a rule when it IS!

What about this?

9.11.2 When electronic scoring is used, once stage scoring is completed, every competitor shall be provided the opportunity to review the PDA or handheld computer display to review their stage time and score entries. At Level II or higher matches, range officers shall also create a hard copy record that includes the hit and penalty totals, time, time of day, competitor initials and range officer initials for each stage.

And there's THAT, as well, to clarify the prior selective rules quotation. Print it (preferable though not yet widely available) or hand write it, it's your choice, but there HAS to be a paper scoresheet at a major match. Thanks ChuckS. Defense rests.

Edited October 8, 2014 by wgnoyes

[wgnoyes]

Bill, I didn't attempt to be inclusive of all penalties on my short list.

What we have done at Area8 was to keep the opt copy (Original) and turn that into stats and give the ENTIRE yellow NCR sheet to the squad mom, it is their job to hand them out.

The order can be what ever you want it to be, but one 8 x 11.5 sheet for 11-12 people vs 0ne 8 x 11.5 sheet for two people is a cost savings.

So what do you do when you need to note an "additional penalties" value?

Interesting idea about the yellow sheet and squad mom, but for a major match, I still prefer a regular sheet, and it seems our competitors do, as well.

[MarkCO]

Wow. I am typing this slowly...there is NO RULE in USPSA that requires a paper back-up.

ChuckS, read the rule above the one you quoted...that is now outdated as Practiscore has now been approved by Strader and EzWinScore is not going to be updated again. If you want to stay in the past, that is your choice.

Getting permission to use electronic (with NO paper) back-up took less time and effort than typing this post!

[wgnoyes]

Wow. I am typing this slowly...there is NO RULE in USPSA that requires a paper back-up.

...

Double WOW, and I'm typing this even more S L O W L Y !!!! It is a rule! Since you don't believe my/ChuckS' cut/paste, here's a picture! And also a definition of the word "shall".

It's not outdated until it's updated in the successor to the Feb 2014 rulebook! And please state your source for the claim that ezws isn't going to be updated again because I can damn well tell you if there are new classifiers in the future, it damn well WILL be updated!

Edited October 8, 2014 by wgnoyes

[wgnoyes]

Here is what I use for a six stage USPSA match...includes place for reshoot on classifier. I get 2 shooters per 8.5x11 sheet. Print them out, cut them in half, pass out during registration/payment.

Not bad, though I still like to match the appearance of the summary screen on the device. Also I want them coming back to me to get the regular paper scoresheet and pay for the reshoot.

[MarkCO]

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-rules.php

http://www.uspsa.org/bodminutes/20140914.pdf

[wgnoyes]

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-rules.php

http://www.uspsa.org/bodminutes/20140914.pdf

....and?

What do you find in any of that which says there will be no further ezws updates and that you can run uspsa major matches (or any level uspsa match for that matter) without a paper backup scoresheet?

Rule 9.11.2 stands.

[jcwren]

Yep. In my book, you'd be nuts to run without paper backup. While there are measures that may be taken to protect the data, you must remember that not every competitor has a cell phone, much less a smart phone. People I talk to like the emails, but most still want the paper. It's cheap insurance, it's time proven, and if I absolutely HAD to, I could score a match using Excel and the white sheets.

Don't *want* to, but I could.

What I still want are low-cost stage printers. Print a thermal strip for you and one for me. No manual copying, no transcription errors, you have your paper copy, and I have mine (which, incidentally, has YOUR signature agreeing that the COF has been correctly scored).

[ChuckS]

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-rules.php

http://www.uspsa.org/bodminutes/20140914.pdf

What about this?

[MarkCO]

Chuck, if you and Bill won't give up your double entry paperwork, that is certainly your choice.

[wgnoyes]

And Chris Wren's, as well.

[Jim Norman]

We spent the money, we printed the auxiliary score sheets, we handed them out at the walk-thru, we asked that the scores be copied down, we got ZIPPO, NADDA, ZERO back.

Do I like them at a major match? yes. but in reality, at a major if, OK IF the match stats staff collects the scores after every rotation, there are few chances of an issue. Also, I believe and I could be wrong, but in the case of a discrepancy the Electronic score wins. The paper is only there as a back-up should the Electronics take a big dump.