dcloudy777 Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 It's that time again folks. The time of year that I have spent 10 hours in the car coming back from FNH thinking about 3-gun most of the trip. This year's topic: Tactical Optics is too big. Over 80% of shooters at FNH this year shot in TO, and that's probably reflected in other majors. Big divisions make for really long prize table waits (for those of us that aren't very good), and makes it tough to "rank" prize table stuff all the way down to 200+ places. So here's the crazy scheme: Split TO in to Modified and Super Modified. Super Modified is basically TO as it sits now. Modified is similar, but with 4X max magnification and 30rd mag limits on the rifle, 9-round capacity (even after the buzzer) on the shotgun, and 17-round magazine limit on the pistol. This would make for a pretty significantly lower "cost of parity" for equipment than current TO, and make the guns (especially the shotgun) a bit more "real-world" applicable. DISCLAIMER: Not trying to change the world here, or claiming I've invented a better mousetrap, or anything like that. It's just discussion... you know, for the sake of having stuff to discuss on a discussion forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 I like the idea. I would only change two things. Pump shotguns only in modified and 15 round pistol capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Interesting line of thought. With tubes being allowed as long as you can get them we are almost Open with the SG, with magnification of 8x, maybe more we are pushing Open with Rifle. How about we step back: 1-6x on Rifle, 8+1 max in SG, 140mm mag in HG unless SS, then 170. Might push a few into Open. Pump only? sorry, nowhere near enough there. Almost everyone has an auto now. you'd not survive that backlash! BUT maybe we could have a separate TO lite where Pump, 1-4x, and SS hg play? Or, maybe we could just leave it alone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 The question is why would people bother? The cost difference is pretty minor for the equipment. The prize table thing I don't get, you would make it more complicated and it would take just as long only more confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Tac scope as it is Super Tac Scope Dots on normal tube fed shotguns. Dots on non compensated pistols Both are entering the realm of common use by military and law enforcement personnel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 (edited) One prize table will solve the issue. Pick a division and try to win it. At the end of the match you stand in line based on your percentage. Creating more divisions is not the way to solve the prize table issue. Creating a new TO-mod division because military, LE, or technology is taking us there...OK I'll bite although I don't really know why other than the silly fact that I like gadgets and this sounds like a gadget division. Limiting capacity sounds like a political statement so I would be apposed. I would recommend a dot on the pistol and stick with the 140/170 standard for mags; 8+1 at the start for sg; 1 optic+offset dot/iron w/no bipod for rifle. Edited September 27, 2014 by Sterling White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaycwebb Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Tac scope as it is Super Tac Scope Dots on normal tube fed shotguns. Dots on non compensated pistols Both are entering the realm of common use by military and law enforcement personnel. I think this would be a really fun division. IMHO the argument of "dot=open only" no longer holds water. They're in common use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPeel Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 One prize table will solve the issue. Pick a division and try to win it. At the end of the match you stand in line based on your percentage. Creating more divisions is not the way to solve the prize table issue. Not that I am anywhere near the top of the scores and front of the prize table line now, and don't anticipate being there for at least a couple of more years, but to me it seems that the prize tables try to go too deep in the field. It's almost becoming like kiddy soccer where everyone has to get a ribbon. I like the idea of having equal prizes for the division winners, then the rest of the field in line with your percentage. Take that down to the top 70% for the valuable prizes. I shouldn't expect anything for a 44% score, yet I've taken home the value of my entry fee from that score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 We need LESS divisions, not more. If a new division is being proposed, can someone tell me which existing and under-used division we are going to ax in its stead? If the only issue is the time to walk the prize table, why not just have two prize tables for TO... top half and bottom half. This would halve the time required to push everyone through. Sure, the prize table officials would have to make some judgments about ranking of prizes, but they basically do that already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted September 27, 2014 Author Share Posted September 27, 2014 We need LESS divisions, not more. I hear this argument all the time.... Why? And as for which divisions could go... My beloved HM was already pretty much killed off when it was split into heavy optics and heavy irons. One shooter in HI at FNH this year. One. Out of over 350. I say let the .308 and .45 guns compete in the various divisions, with a scoring advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Don't like long lines? Two choices. Win your division (and be the first through the prize table) or join us in Open. Still lots of room. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OPENB Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 I think the best idea was one proposed for the Pro/Am. Publish the list in order, and if the stickers aren't worth the wait, hit the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted September 27, 2014 Author Share Posted September 27, 2014 Okay... I was really just kinda joking about the prize table waits.... I'd just like to see shooters more evenly distributed among divisions that actually represent disparate sets of gear. Equipment divisions lose a lot of their "meaning" when 4/5 shooters are all in the same one. And the gear in a couple of the others isn't terribly different. In the 3-gun league that I'm nowhere near motivated or smart enough to form there would be: Open: which is duh... open. Pretty much anything safe and legal. Super Mod: described above Modifed: described above Defender: Modified, except with irons/RDS or rifle, manually operated shotguns, and pistols that are legal in either IDPA SSP or USPSA Production or Single Stack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haraise Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 Dots are on everything now, including my carry gun. A place other than open would be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 One prize table will solve the issue. Pick a division and try to win it. At the end of the match you stand in line based on your percentage. Creating more divisions is not the way to solve the prize table issue. Not that I am anywhere near the top of the scores and front of the prize table line now, and don't anticipate being there for at least a couple of more years, but to me it seems that the prize tables try to go too deep in the field. It's almost becoming like kiddy soccer where everyone has to get a ribbon. I like the idea of having equal prizes for the division winners, then the rest of the field in line with your percentage. Take that down to the top 70% for the valuable prizes. I shouldn't expect anything for a 44% score, yet I've taken home the value of my entry fee from that score. While not all sponsors are created equal and products the same it is just as important to the small company to get their product into the hands of competitors. Prize tables are a great way for this to happen. Small sponsors do what they can so be grateful that they are willing to give. And remember, don't be embarrassed if you finish below 70%. More important is the fact that you are able to compete and finish the match while many do not have this luxury. Take the lessons learned and travel the road that many of us have and you will get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted September 27, 2014 Share Posted September 27, 2014 (edited) We need LESS divisions, not more. I hear this argument all the time.... Why? And as for which divisions could go... My beloved HM was already pretty much killed off when it was split into heavy optics and heavy irons. One shooter in HI at FNH this year. One. Out of over 350. I say let the .308 and .45 guns compete in the various divisions, with a scoring advantage. Because, as you say, the HM divisions are very thinly populated nowadays. I agree with your sentiment, but not the differential scoring... too much risk of scoring mistakes. I would rather see HM amalgamated back into a single division. As nobody seems able to shoot irons anymore, I guess it would have to be HM Scope. If HM became a single division, then I could support an additional Tac Scope-based division Edited September 27, 2014 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowsure Posted September 28, 2014 Share Posted September 28, 2014 Let's try it local and see if it changes the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 I'd be willing to shoot in open using the Super Modified or whatever we're calling it equipment so long as we put asterisks next to the shooter names and track popularity of it. Or do it as a provisional division and it has to have X number of shooters or it gets folded into open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcloudy777 Posted September 30, 2014 Author Share Posted September 30, 2014 I'd be willing to shoot in open using the Super Modified or whatever we're calling it equipment so long as we put asterisks next to the shooter names and track popularity of it. Or do it as a provisional division and it has to have X number of shooters or it gets folded into open. Super Mod would basically what Tac Optics is now. It's the Modified division that would be the new experiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Nevermind, I was talking about the Super Tac Scope thing I mentioned with dots allowed on everything. There actually seems to be some call for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EaZeNuTZ33 Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 More divisions means another division that is underserved. Eliminate all divisions and capacity limitations or types. .308 gets hit concessions for paper and static steel with one hit, .223 has to hit paper with 1-A or two anywhere and two hits on static steel. 9mm requires two hits on paper, .44 and larger requires one. Wait.......my popcorn is still in the microwave...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 So just open? I would be fine with that if that was what the decision was, but I bet there would be a bit of resistance from those that don't have any open gear to play with. All that scope tac and limited gear people have would be worth shit. More divisions means another division that is underserved. Eliminate all divisions and capacity limitations or types. .308 gets hit concessions for paper and static steel with one hit, .223 has to hit paper with 1-A or two anywhere and two hits on static steel. 9mm requires two hits on paper, .44 and larger requires one. Wait.......my popcorn is still in the microwave...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EaZeNuTZ33 Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 So just open? I would be fine with that if that was what the decision was, but I bet there would be a bit of resistance from those that don't have any open gear to play with. All that scope tac and limited gear people have would be worth shit. More divisions means another division that is underserved. Eliminate all divisions and capacity limitations or types. .308 gets hit concessions for paper and static steel with one hit, .223 has to hit paper with 1-A or two anywhere and two hits on static steel. 9mm requires two hits on paper, .44 and larger requires one. Wait.......my popcorn is still in the microwave...... 170mm mags fit my 9mm 2011 just fine, as well as 33rd mags in Glocks. Load the shotguns to the max before the buzzer. Add bipod to TO gun. GTG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 (edited) Breaking the TACOPs division into several divisions based on the dot is an outstanding idea TO Modified Division equipment: Rifle - magnified scope, 1x dot, and a bipod (no mag limitation) Pistol - 1x dot, no comp, 170mm mags Shotgun - 1x dot, no comp, 12+1 before the buzzer Edited October 2, 2014 by Sterling White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaycwebb Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 (edited) Breaking the TACOPs division into several divisions based on the dot is an outstanding idea TO Modified Division equipment: Rifle - magnified scope, 1x dot, and a bipod (no mag limitation) Pistol - 1x dot, no comp, 170mm mags Shotgun - 1x dot, no comp, 12+1 before the buzzer Yep. Sounds like an awesome division that I would shoot happily. Although IMHO I don't really think 170mm mags are really needed. 140, even with a .40 gives a shooter 20+1 (ish) in the gun. If there is a pistol heavy stage they're going to find a place to do a reload regardless if their mag is 140 or 170. Example- I shoot a Glock 34. My 140s hold 23. My 170 holds 29. I'd wager these numbers are average across most platforms, and that most 3gunners shoot 9mm. - 15 Round pistol stage= I'm unlikely to bother reloading either mag. - 20 or more round pistol stage= I'm likely to find a reload spot somewhere regardless of my mag capacity. I guess the scenario where it would really matter is a 3 gun stage were there is a pistol arrary with 21+ pistol shots. Not trying to pick a fight or anything, just offering an opinion about that little part. Edited October 2, 2014 by Jaycwebb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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