MP9 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) Hi all.. Is the shadow target with adjustable rear sight idpa legal?. I would like to be sure due the recent problem with the ACCU shadow being ilegal for idpa. the target has the slide machined for this rear sight.. so is it a factory part from cz-ub /usa or a work done by CZC only..? i would like to avoid any issue with all that crap from idpa HQ.. thanks PS: I think I have seen somewhere a factory sp-01 shadow with factory adjustable rear sight but cant find it to confirm. Edited September 17, 2014 by MP9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afoulk Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) I'm not sure I understand the Accu-Shadow ruling completely. I'm not sure how the slide milling done by CZC to install a rear sight can be legal in SSP if they are not considered an OEM. I'm going to wait for the clarification to see how one can be illegal and the other can be legal. I don't see any consistency in the positions. Edited September 17, 2014 by afoulk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Round_Gun_Shooter Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Hi all.. Is the shadow target with adjustable rear sight idpa legal?. I would like to be sure due the recent problem with the ACCU shadow being ilegal for idpa. the target has the slide machined for this rear sight.. so is it a factory part from cz-ub /usa or a work done by CZC only..? i would like to avoid any issue with all that crap from idpa HQ.. thanks PS: I think I have seen somewhere a factory sp-01 shadow with factory adjustable rear sight but cant find it to confirm. Maybe today but who knows about tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S&W686 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Is the Accu Shadow ESP division legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Is the Accu Shadow ESP division legal. No because not SSP legal + full-length dust cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfd147 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Remember, there are two different Accu-Shadow models. The SP01 and 75. As the rules read right now the SP01 is not legal for SSP/ESP. Since it has a full length dust cover/ light rail. But it makes the weight limit therefore it can be shot in both if there are no mods done. The 75 does not have this problem. It should be ESP legal and the mod should fall under internal accuracy work, my opinion. The IDPA rules committee was not given this information and ruled that the mod was not legal which covered both guns. When this was brought to their attention it was too late and they chose not to change it two days before Nationals in Tulsa. It will be, at least try to, address it at a later date when things cool down. The main misunderstanding that caused all of this was a certain party sold several of these guns stating that they were IDPA SSP legal without actually checking. And when it was questioned by a few shooters to IDPA they confirmed that it was not legal for SSP/ESP. IDPA then was hammered on social media about suddenly changing the rules. Also people thought that CZ-USA & CZ Customs are the factory where the pistols were made. It is true that both the companies have the name CZ in them but they are not own by each other. Yes they both hold a FFL for manufacturing and an importing FFL, CZ-USA only. It was thought that the Accu-Shadow mod was a factory part. The actual factory is in CZUB. That is where the pistol is made and imported by CZ-USA. Then the Shadow pistol are distributed to CZ Custom where the mod is done. It is not and has never been available from CZUB and therefore is an aftermarket or factory custom shop mod and is not legal. OK, whew. Now for the Target series. These fall under the SSP rule of milling the slide for new sights. Which is not permitted, unless it comes that way from CZUB. Most folks did not realize this when they shot theirs at Nationals in SSP. I caught it but did not say anything to keep the peace and let the CZ shooters have fun. I hope I over explained this well. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 I just shot my 75 shadow target in SSP at the nationals, where CZs were definitely in the spotlight. I have the lpa cut on my gun. Not a word was said to me. But what does it really mean, I don't know? The capricious nature of HQ and Wilson's desire to sell that berreta of theirs can mean anything could happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MP9 Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share Posted September 17, 2014 so, if there is not a factory sp01 shadow with adj/ rear sight and this work is dont only at CZC which include milling the slide.. then this gun should not be legal for IDPA. unless IDPA apply the rules differently for this one.. otherwise.. the next to be banned is the czc custom shadow....shit... shit.. I think I will need a lawyer whenever I go to an idpa match.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brisix Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 I would argue that it would be considered illegal with IDPA for the same reason they made the Accu-Shadow illegal. Just like the Accu-Shadow the Shadow Target is created by custom shop taking factory shadows and modifying them to take the LPA site. I also doubt the annual production for the Shadow Target is anywhere close to 2000 units. I have attached the IPSC production list to showcase my point. Both IDPA and IPSC have similar logic in their decisions."(CZUSA Custom Shop models (including the SP-01 Shadow Target, CZ 75 Shadow T and CZ 75 SP01 ACCU Shadow), and Frankonia models (including Mamba and Viper), are not approved)"https://www.ipsc.org/rules/proddiv.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfd147 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 rowdyb,Oh I saw your pistol when I ran you. I knew it was an illegal pistol, but it was not my job to do equipment check. I was focused on running a fun and safe stage without giving out any procedurals, the later did not happen unfortunately.Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfd147 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) Why does everybody get stuck on the production of over 2000 units for a custom pistol in SSP? It is irrelevant. Jason Edited September 17, 2014 by kfd147 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brisix Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Remember, there are two different Accu-Shadow models. The SP01 and 75. As the rules read right now the SP01 is not legal for SSP/ESP. Since it has a full length dust cover/ light rail. But it makes the weight limit therefore it can be shot in both if there are no mods done. The 75 does not have this problem. It should be ESP legal and the mod should fall under internal accuracy work, my opinion. The IDPA rules committee was not given this information and ruled that the mod was not legal which covered both guns. When this was brought to their attention it was too late and they chose not to change it two days before Nationals in Tulsa. It will be, at least try to, address it at a later date when things cool down. The main misunderstanding that caused all of this was a certain party sold several of these guns stating that they were IDPA SSP legal without actually checking. And when it was questioned by a few shooters to IDPA they confirmed that it was not legal for SSP/ESP. IDPA then was hammered on social media about suddenly changing the rules. Also people thought that CZ-USA & CZ Customs are the factory where the pistols were made. It is true that both the companies have the name CZ in them but they are not own by each other. Yes they both hold a FFL for manufacturing and an importing FFL, CZ-USA only. It was thought that the Accu-Shadow mod was a factory part. The actual factory is in CZUB. That is where the pistol is made and imported by CZ-USA. Then the Shadow pistol are distributed to CZ Custom where the mod is done. It is not and has never been available from CZUB and therefore is an aftermarket or factory custom shop mod and is not legal. OK, whew. Now for the Target series. These fall under the SSP rule of milling the slide for new sights. Which is not permitted, unless it comes that way from CZUB. Most folks did not realize this when they shot theirs at Nationals in SSP. I caught it but did not say anything to keep the peace and let the CZ shooters have fun. I hope I over explained this well. Jason I agree that the Accu-Shadow should not be legal in IDPA becasue of their own standards. What I do not like is the flip flop nature of IDPA in their ruling. I was sent the email below from Robert Ray 6/21/2013 stating the Accu-Shadow was SSP legal. I forwarded that email to CZ Custom shop because at the time they were not sure it would be legal for IDPA. The blame is not with the CZ Custom shop misrepresenting the legal nature of their product but with Robert Ray. After looking at the gun a little closer, I do not see any reason why it would not be legal for SSP except for its weight. It would need to be 39 ounces by the current rule book to be legal for SSP. As it has a full length dust cover, it is not legal for ESP unless it were legal for SSP because of the SSP exception for full length dust cover. Robert Ray International Defensive Pistol Association 2232 County Road 719 Berryville, AR 72616 robert@idpa.com (w)870-545-3886 (f)870-545-3894 (cell)870-350-1885 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfd147 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Unfortunately, your email date is before the new rule change and the new rules were not in effect. Not that it would have made any difference. I do agree though that it does seem he was wrong and overlooked something. Hint: The front of the pistol! Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elguapo Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 All I have to say is....what a shit show for IDPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmt Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 If Wilson Combat modified it, it's probably legal. If not, then no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Thankfully I have two "regular" SP01 Shadows on the way, so less to worry about. Adjusting my rear sight will now just take a hammer and a dowel rather than a screw driver. Jason, refresh my mind, which bay were you running again? Hopefully I was nothing but professional while in your bay and thank you for volunteering your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfd147 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 "REMEMBER THE ALAMO!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Glad you didn't bother me about it, that was my first bay, first day. hahaha. I'd joked with my friends if someone tried to DQ me I was gonna "go Godzilla" and tear all the targets down on the stage. All in jest of course, I could never bring myself to actually do that to a stage. At nationals. That pistol is now for sale though............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johes Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 I just bought my Shadow Target based on the fact it's sold by CZUSA even though some work was done by CZ custom. I didn't mill the slide, I didn't send it out to a gunsmith to mill the slide. The gun is exactly how it came out of the box. If that's not stock, what is. I know how it's worded in the rule book but this stinks. Rowdy, I also bought something new because of this. I just sent $40 to USPSA for a membership. They understand the meaning of stock/production. I'm not quitting IDPA, but only because of where I shoot and the people I shoot with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afoulk Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 so, if there is not a factory sp01 shadow with adj/ rear sight and this work is dont only at CZC which include milling the slide.. then this gun should not be legal for IDPA. unless IDPA apply the rules differently for this one.. otherwise.. the next to be banned is the czc custom shadow....shit... shit.. I think I will need a lawyer whenever I go to an idpa match.. Funny you should mention that. Assuming the AccuShadow and the Shadow Target are not legal for SSP, would the hammer on the Custom Shadow become illegal for SSP? Is there another SSP legal gun that uses that hammer? It looks kinda close to the P-09 but I dont know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfd147 Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 (edited) The actual Comp hammer comes from CZUB and is a factory part. Therefore legal.http://www.shop-cz.com/cz-hammer-sa-da/d-71161/Jason Edited September 18, 2014 by kfd147 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDescribe Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 Why does the Wilson Beretta keep getting brought up in these AccuShadow -- IDPA discussions? What mod is the Wilson Beretta supposed to have that's IDPA illegal and getting overlooked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfd147 Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 Joyce Wilson Executive Director of IDPA, is the wife of Bill Wilson, owner of Wilson Combat. He is one of the founders. Anytime anything goes wrong with IDPA, it is blamed or a reference to Wilson Combat is made since they are right next to each other. When people have nothing else to complain about or want to jump on the IDPA bashing bandwagon you will see it. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfd147 Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 rowdyb, I hope you had fun. I was there to run a stage and make sure you were safe and had fun doing it. I have been at matches before where the SO's made you feel like you were an annoyance and played Gotcha games with procedurals. I have a great bunch of SO/Shooters that I have learned from and try to keep that spirit when I SO larger matches. After all it is a game and we are there to have fun.Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 (edited) here is the product, touted as being idpa ssp legal. LINK HERE some of the reasons that wilson gets brought up is a lot of us feel they are doing the same thing as czc and getting away with it, but they aren't in any official beretta stuff whereas the czc stuff is in the cz usa brochure and website. also, that front sight dovetail is milled in by wilson, which using their own logic should make it illegal for ssp. but finally, using idpa's own rules again you have to make 2k a year of the gun. i spoke personally with a wilson combat rep and he told me the only make 300 guns a month. thats 3,600 a year. it's pretty incredulous to think that 2/3 of their total production is that beretta. but as i've said before, it really isnt about the gun. it's about how the decision was made, the lack of transparency, how the information was disseminated and especially its timing. and it bring backs into conversation a lot of people's unhappiness with the rulebook, its wording, the rules themselves and so on. i really need to just shut up about it and do my own thing. Edited September 18, 2014 by rowdyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now