Which semi auto shotgun are you running for 3-gun

[P.E. Kelley]

The P350 is Stoeger's pump gun. Uses the same basic action as the Benelli, without all the polymer. It uses the same twist bolt as the Nova, but has the S3000 shell catch. Has a nicely shaped lifter and the safety is in the right spot too. I might be picking one up soon to mess with also. We'll see if the budget allows another project gun over the winter. The only draw backs I can see with the P350 is that the lifter doesn't stat depressed during loading. Don't know if it will matter, but I did notice.

I couldn't have said it better myself! Lifter doesn't stay up on any self-loader so it it shouldn't be a issue.

The other cool things about this gun is that the gun will unlock with the forend loaded. (pulling back on the forend and pull the trigger)

The loading port can be cut much like a M2 (more than you can on a Nova / Super Nova)

The pump operation is smooth and solid (I love my Super Nova but it is "wiggly")

On the con side...the stock is not adjustable but I think a M3000 stock and shims will fit. and the LOP is too long even for me.

[TonytheTiger]

I feel like MarkCO is about to tell you to bust out the trusty chop saw to fix your LOP issues Pat.

[P.E. Kelley]

Mark might, but he knows I have been gunsmtihing probably longer than he has been shooting competition.

[Jadeslade]

What is with this fad of using cheaper shotguns? It's not like there is a shortage of Beretta's or Benelli's. My Beretta cost 900. So maybe you save 400-500 dollars on your gun. That's what I pay in motel fees for a three day match a lot of the time. Is there some advantage that I'm not seeing? I am all for gun smithing for the fun of it, I do it all the time. But I don't get this one.

[TonytheTiger]

A little over a year ago I was looking at the cheaper guns. I'm still only shooting at the local club match level, so the travel costs aren't yet figured into my shooting budget and I could probably do about as well with a cheaper gun. However, I forced myself to realize that when I got more serious I'd feel the need to upgrade yet again. So why not just save a little longer and buy once, cry once. That and I burnt the cost difference in ammo in the first couple weeks of owning my 1301 anyways, that also helped me realize ammo will far outweigh gun cost if I ever want to get any good.

[Jadeslade]

Got ya. Still not sure why knock offs would be a choice.

[TonytheTiger]

I do try to stay up to date on the cheaper guns even if I'm not in the market, I've got some buddies on the fence about trying 3gun. If I can sell them on something cheaper and get them hooked I can push them off said fence and finally have some shooting buddies!

[MarkCO]

What is with this fad of using cheaper shotguns?

It is not a fad, nor is the M3000 aimed at competitors like you, me or Pat. The largest group of 3 gunners shoot a few local matches and maybe one major a year. It is their vacation and recreation. They do not practice much and they have a limited budget. Having a shotgun that will last 10+ years, be under about $700 and let them compete instead of tinker is beneficial for ALL 3gunners. When a budget gun needs $600 in work and parts to make it long term reliable, not good for the sport! We have at least 6 guys with the "previous" budget guns who gave up on 3gun because they got a shotgun that won't run. I spent thousands of dollars on those three other platforms and they just will never cut the mustard until you pass the price of an M2 or a VersaMax. The M3000 is a much superior platform, which is why we made parts for it.

It is not that I, nor Patrick do not understand that the price of a shotgun is inconsequential for us in the grand scope, but that we see a reliable, competitive lower priced option as being good for the sport, and ultimately gun owners in general. As such, investing time and energy into proving the platform and development of budget oriented enhancements is worthwhile.

Edited November 14, 2014 by MarkCO

[P.E. Kelley]

Jadeslade,

We feel the same way but it is hard to get the new guy on a tight budget to laydown the green to play a game on the weekends.

Until they "we" set "the hook" they have to start somewhere. Again buy once, cry once but that doesn't cut it when you are a local

shooter who just want to play.

I have to hold back when another new guy pops in with the "what cheap (POS) scope should I buy" but I remember being that guy.

That is where value for performance comes in...Names like Stoeger, Glock, S&W come into play instead of Beretta, Benelli and any 2011.

What is is. And I am leaning more and more toward those value guns just to show some solidarity with those new guys.

[Jadeslade]

Ok. That I can understand. Thank you.

[Jesse Tischauser]

What is with this fad of using cheaper shotguns?

It is not a fad, nor is the M3000 aimed at competitors like you, me or Pat. The largest group of 3 gunners shoot a few local matches and maybe one major a year. It is their vacation and recreation. They do not practice much and they have a limited budget. Having a shotgun that will last 10+ years, be under about $700 and let them compete instead of tinker I'd beneficial for ALL 3gunners. When a budget gun needs $600 in work and parts to make it long term reliable, not good for the sport! We have at least 6 guys with the "previous" budget guns who gave up on 3gun because they got a shotgun that won't run. I spent thousands of dollars on those three other platforms and they just will never cut the mustard until you pass the price of an M2 or a VersaMax. The M3000 is a much superior platform, which is why we made parts for it.

It is not that I, nor Patrick do not understand that the price of a shotgun is inconsequential for us in the grand scope, but that we see a reliable, competitive lower priced option as being good for the sport, and ultimately gun owners in general. As such, investing time and energy into proving the platform and development of budget oriented enhancements is worthwhile.

Well said Mark! I didn't shoot for Stoeger this year because it offered a benefit over my steadfast Benelli M2. I shot it to prove or disprove that it was a viable gun for the weekend warrior that doesn't want to drop $10k in a 3-gun kit to have some fun.

I'm guessing my local club has a pool of 40-60 shooters. Of those maybe ten spend the coin to travel to even our local (2-3 hour drive) majors. This group of shooters is the core of 3-gun. This M3k gun and the 930 are built for the entry level recreational shooter. We have all heard the ups and downs of the 930. I wanted to see (and I have seen) that the M3k is a viable and reliable alternative to the 930.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[MarkCO]

Mark might, but he knows I have been gunsmtihing probably longer than he has been shooting competition.

Yep, and that wisdom is a good thing.

Maybe a last guided miter saw...

[co-exprs]

Well... there is a lot of wisdom in the buy once cry once thought process. I generally follow it myself. 3 gun is really expensive to get into though and some are buying a lot of gear for the first time. Most people spend about $6000 just on average guns, glass and gear. It's easy to tell people to shoot what they have or borrow until they can afford to buy the good stuff, but many new competitors want to shoot their own gear and are looking for decent, reliable gear at a more attractive price point. If some one really wanted to get going sooner than later, there are now reliable guns and gear that will get you rocking for quite a bit less money. These days, if you are willing to compromise on a few manufacturers names, you can be fully equipped with good, solid performing equipment for $4000ish. Kurt Miller's M1S90 is probably the best piece of marketing Benelli has access to. I mean the guy has something like an infinite number of shells though that ugly old scattergun. When the M1S90 showed up on our shores though, no one knew it would be worth running. The inertia system was largely unproven and Kurt took a chance on the thing. Back then, anyone who was serious about 3 gun ran 1100's. I think it's cool that people who have access to these new guns are trying them out to see what works and what doesn't. As for me... I really like shooting the M3000 and the P350 sounds like it has the potential to be a top choice for heavy division. It's worth the $300 to find out.

[kujo929]

Crums customized M2. Completely changed my shotgun game.

[TaranTactical]

What is with this fad of using cheaper shotguns? It's not like there is a shortage of Beretta's or Benelli's. My Beretta cost 900. So maybe you save 400-500 dollars on your gun. That's what I pay in motel fees for a three day match a lot of the time. Is there some advantage that I'm not seeing? I am all for gun smithing for the fun of it, I do it all the time. But I don't get this one.

Many times, a lot of people are turned off by the price tags of high end 3gun stuff. The difference between, say, a versamax and a benelli M2 can be substantial. Also, most people understand that they're going to have to put some work into the gun after they get it so a mindset I hear a lot is; " I'm paying money to get the work done to it anyways, so it'll run just like a Benelli ".

I'm a big fan of the buy once, cry once mentality if you know the deal is going to to be significantly better and worth the price point. Trying to struggle to get the performance of a Benelli m2 or a Stoeger in a Versamax is not only frustrating and can be costly, it's almost unrealistic.

[Jadeslade]

What is with this fad of using cheaper shotguns? It's not like there is a shortage of Beretta's or Benelli's. My Beretta cost 900. So maybe you save 400-500 dollars on your gun. That's what I pay in motel fees for a three day match a lot of the time. Is there some advantage that I'm not seeing? I am all for gun smithing for the fun of it, I do it all the time. But I don't get this one.

Many times, a lot of people are turned off by the price tags of high end 3gun stuff. The difference between, say, a versamax and a benelli M2 can be substantial. Also, most people understand that they're going to have to put some work into the gun after they get it so a mindset I hear a lot is; " I'm paying money to get the work done to it anyways, so it'll run just like a Benelli ".

I'm a big fan of the buy once, cry once mentality if you know the deal is going to to be significantly better and worth the price point. Trying to struggle to get the performance of a Benelli m2 or a Stoeger in a Versamax is not only frustrating and can be costly, it's almost unrealistic.

[Jadeslade]

Yes. My main shotgun is a classic Benelli M1 done by yours truly. Cost me millions. But it runs, is accurate, and I know where it shoots and the vastly underrated trigger job makes a huge difference in shooting quality. There are other guys who do guns well, but this one is mine. Got the Beretta to file and Dremel on so I have something to do with my hands.

Don't know why that separated into 2 posts, but it did.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Jadeslade

[sundevil827]

Mark, Jesse, Pat, and Taran hit the nail on the head, for me at least.

I've shot USPSA exclusively for the past couple of years, and I have yet to shoot a 3-Gun match. I got into USPSA on the cheaper side (shooting Production) and once I was hooked, I went out and dumped cash on an Automatic Accuracy CZ Shadow. For me to feel that the price was worth it, I was hitting every local match I could, summer I was shooting every weekend (in Illinois) and every other week in the winter, plus I was willing to drive 6-7 hours for a major match. Once I had that level of commitment, then the initial investment was a very minor part of the whole package, in fact it paled to what I was spending on reloading supplies to shoot 20,000 rounds a year. Turns out once I made that commitment, the rounds shot went up again this year.

With that in mind, I've got an investment in USPSA and I'm looking to dip my toe into 3-Gun in 2015. I spent the money on the AR and optic because that was something else I was interested in. Ultimately I'm not sure dumping $1900 or so on an M2 is worth the investment for 2015 where I'll probably shoot 4-6 club matches, and try to maybe get a regional match in as well. Sure, I could borrow someone's gun, but it doesn't make sense for me to do that. I'd rather spend $650 on the M3000, so I have something at home to practice reloading with, and that would serve as a reasonable back-up shotgun for an M2 if I do get hooked, and yes, when I got hooked in USPSA, I invested on a back-up CZ as well.

I understand the whole buy once, cry once concept, I really do, and I subscribed to it with my AR, but with the ability to get in and try the sport with not a huge disadvantage with a budget shotgun, why not go in that way? I

[TaranTactical]

I understand the whole buy once, cry once concept, I really do, and I subscribed to it with my AR, but with the ability to get in and try the sport with not a huge disadvantage with a budget shotgun, why not go in that way? I

That's absolutely true as well, and why we don't do full packages on a lot of people's guns. We usually get benellis with minor modifications done, and many times we'll just leave them along. If you're not planning on going all out shred machine grand master, getting something cheap and good to go can help justify the expense later on. For instance, this is why we support Glocks so much. It's an easy gun to learn with, it's cheap, and the necessary modifications aren't extensive. Sure you can pay for slide cutting, etc, but when you just want to get your feet into the sport, you need a trigger job, grip job, guide rod, and sights. Done. 1000-1200 bucks and you're off. You don't have to spend 4k+ on a new custom 2011.

That being said, as a rule, we won't work on Versamax. There's a lot of issues with the platform right now that we wouldn't want to stamp our name on.

[TonytheTiger]

It's time to stir the pot and maybe start an argument! Do tell, what issues does the VM have?

[MarkCO]

It's time to stir the pot and maybe start an argument! Do tell, what issues does the VM have?

This should be worth a bag of popcorn and maybe even a second beer.

[P.E. Kelley]

It's time to stir the pot and maybe start an argument! Do tell, what issues does the VM have?

I hope Taran doesn't bite on this one. but most of what you want to know is documented within this forum.

But I will give you two

Hammers replaced with Benelli parts.

Bolt cam pin replaced with Benelli part.

This is not an indictment of the VM as it has lots of positive virtues, but suffers from a few

less than best quality parts. Overcome that and you have a good lead slinger.

Edited November 16, 2014 by P.E. Kelley

[TonytheTiger]

So what are we to call this hermaphrodite of a gun Pat? A Remelli? Remellington? Perhaps a Bennington?

[sundevil827]

I understand the whole buy once, cry once concept, I really do, and I subscribed to it with my AR, but with the ability to get in and try the sport with not a huge disadvantage with a budget shotgun, why not go in that way? I

That's absolutely true as well, and why we don't do full packages on a lot of people's guns. We usually get benellis with minor modifications done, and many times we'll just leave them along. If you're not planning on going all out shred machine grand master, getting something cheap and good to go can help justify the expense later on. For instance, this is why we support Glocks so much. It's an easy gun to learn with, it's cheap, and the necessary modifications aren't extensive. Sure you can pay for slide cutting, etc, but when you just want to get your feet into the sport, you need a trigger job, grip job, guide rod, and sights. Done. 1000-1200 bucks and you're off. You don't have to spend 4k+ on a new custom 2011.

That's exactly how I got into USPSA. The wife was not keen about me looking at expensive Production guns (and honestly they would have been wasted on me at the time) so I got in cheaper, got hooked, and once the door was opened, and she started shooting as well, it was justified. Then came the 650, followed by a couple of Shadow's, followed by her Shadow, and all of a sudden, she understood what I was putting in, and why. Combine it with the fact I was dry firing 30 minutes a day, live fire practicing 200 rounds a week, and getting in as many matches as I could, it was okay. It was not a hobby, it's a passion.

What's funny on the shotgun, is she knows I like the M2, and she is actually the one encouraging me to hold out for a couple of months, wait for a deal, or just go buy my own after the holidays, and I'm the one looking at the M3000 again. No need to justify it to the wife, this time I guess I'm just trying to justify the commitment level to myself. Sometimes an entry point is all an interested person needs to get hooked. Personally, I'm all for seeing more people try shooting sports, and accessibility is key, 3-Gun is definitely intimidating without a few options that let people dip their toes in. Then again, from the second I've expressed interest in 3-Gun, I've had more people offering help, and to loan me equipment to get me out on the range than I can imagine. The shooting community in general has some pretty awesome people.

[connermorrow]

I shoot a M2000 and I've never had a single malfunction with it, got it new about 2 or 3 years ago. I take my tube off and it is my duck/dove hunting gun, still no issues.