Nationals Stage 22 - Do you have to activate the moving hardcover?

[beltjones]

Here are the stages for the upcoming nationals in Southern Utah.

http://uspsa.org/new_nationals/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/14_USPSA_Nationals_Stages.pdf

I direct your attention to stage 22, which specifies that PP1-PP5 (sic - only 4 PPs on the stage) will not be visible at rest. The "rest" being referred to is the swinging hardcover that is activated by PP1.

So my question is, if these are disappearing targets, do you have to shoot at them?

I thought there was a rule that said that all moving/ disappearing targets have to be activated before the end of a stage, but the actual rule reads a little bit differently. It reads:

9.9.3 Moving scoring targets will always incur failure to shoot at and miss penalties if a competitor fails to activate the mechanism which initiates the target movement. This includes no-shoot targets that must be activated when in front of scoring targets to expose them, penalties are based on number of shots required for the scoring target(s) behind the no-shoot.

Ok, but this isn't a moving target, these are fixed steel targets that are obstructed by swinging hard cover, so I wouldn't think the first sentence would apply. The second sentence adds no-shoots that have to be activated in order to expose targets, but again, the steel is already exposed (at least one piece is).

So what do you guys think? Does 9.9.3 apply to this stage?

[ChuckS]

When I first saw that stage description, I though why would they put something that game-able in the Nats? After looking at it, those are not moving or disappearing targets. I don't thinkl 9.9.3 applies. My thought is that you have to shoot them, and probably shoot PP1 last I have seen other stages were a popper will close another port and the targets behind the port were not disappearing.

ETA: Now, if you HAVE to take PP1 first, 9.9.3 may apply. Gotta see the stage...

Edited September 15, 2014 by ChuckS

[gng4life]

It is hard to tell from the pic since PP1 is not labeled and one is missing. I am thinking that PP1 is the first popper in the row of poppers and the steel hardcover is open. Once the first popper is shot, it activates the hardcover and then you have to take 2-5 while the hardcover is swinging. Just a guess but if this the case, you will have to activate it or lose a ton of points.

[beltjones]

It is hard to tell from the pic since PP1 is not labeled and one is missing. I am thinking that PP1 is the first popper in the row of poppers and the steel hardcover is open. Once the first popper is shot, it activates the hardcover and then you have to take 2-5 while the hardcover is swinging. Just a guess but if this the case, you will have to activate it or lose a ton of points.

Based on what interpretation of what rule?

[JAFO]

I'd say you answered your own question. The targets don't move, and the no-shoot doesn't cover the targets when set, so none of 9.9 applies. And since they don't move, they don't fall under the definition of a disappearing target:

Disappearing target ..........A target which when activated and after completing its movement is no longer available for engagement.

So that means that they are static targets subject to miss penalties just like a wide-open popper would be.

Edited September 15, 2014 by JAFO

[beltjones]

I'd say you answered your own question. The targets don't move, and the no-shoot doesn't cover the targets when set, so none of 9.9 applies. And since they don't move, they don't fall under the definition of a disappearing target:

Disappearing target ..........A target which when activated and after completing its movement is no longer available for engagement.

So that means that they are static targets subject to miss penalties just like a wide-open popper would be.

That would make sense for the first popper, but the stage description says all of them are disappearing.

[remoandiris]

No doubt there will be alterations once the stage is built. The text of the WSB could be wrong, too. Possibly the words "hard cover" were left out.

"PP1-5 will not be visible when hard cover is at rest" or something to that effect.

Edited September 15, 2014 by remoandiris

[beltjones]

No doubt there will be alterations once the stage is built. The text of the WSB could be wrong, too. Possibly the words "hard cover" were left out.

"PP1-5 will not be visible when hard cover is at rest" or something to that effect.

How will that change anything? They are still disappearing targets that don't correspond to 9.9.3.

[motosapiens]

I think instead of arguing about it on the internet, I'm going to ask how they're scoring it at the stage, and plan accordingly.

I have never heard of a 'disappearing target' that is not a moving one, but I don't see any compelling reason the same rules couldn't be used.

[TinCan]

The targets are "appearing" , Appendix A3

Must be activated Rule 2.1.8,5 ,

Edited September 15, 2014 by TinCan

[grapemeister]

I don't see why they would need to change it. If you don't shoot PP1, you can't shoot 2, 3, and 4 because you wouldn't be able to see them. Whose going to take all the FTE penalties and misses for that stage.

P.S. You could only engage PP1, and then move on, and then there would be 3 no-penalty mikes, and no FTE's.

Edited September 15, 2014 by grapemeister

[beltjones]

The targets are "appearing" , Appendix A3

Must be activated Rule 2.1.8,5 ,

Yeah, I don't see how that applies at all.

[beltjones]

I think instead of arguing about it on the internet, I'm going to ask how they're scoring it at the stage, and plan accordingly.

I have never heard of a 'disappearing target' that is not a moving one, but I don't see any compelling reason the same rules couldn't be used.

What on earth do you constitute as "arguing?" I'm asking a question about the rules in a rules sub-forum.

But I did like how you posted this caustic response while at the same time saying you're not going to argue about it on the internet. That's A+ trolling.

[ChuckS]

The targets are "appearing" , Appendix A3

Must be activated Rule 2.1.8,5 ,

This is the problem with using stage drawings. You can't really tell what's what! Example, I can only find 4 PP in the drawing! But, it seems logical, based on the WSB, that all 5 can be seen through the port (because they can't be seen through the port "at rest"), they can't be appearing targets because they are available prior to activating anything! It seems like they disappear but not move.

We will see in SGU

ETA: That port in front of the chair looks pretty low,,,

Edited September 15, 2014 by ChuckS

[CHA-LEE]

I think the only requirement would be in engaging and taking down the popper that activates the swinging hard cover. If the remaining poppers can't be seen once the swinging hard cover comes to rest, then they should be considered disappearing.

If they leave the stage in this configuration there would be no reason to even shoot at the remaining poppers after hitting the first one to start the movement of the swinging hard cover. There are simply not enough points in targets to justify wasting the time to engage more poppers. That is if the poppers are set one in front of the other and you can only see one at a time.

Like others have said, we really don't know what the best strategy is going to be for this until we can actually see how they set it up.

If they set it up so the steel is in front of one another and they are considered DT's, then its a pointless shooting challenge. Why they would try to do something like that at the nationals is beyond me as these stages should have been fully reviewed and approved by NROI, USPSA President, RM, MD, etc.

[Ssanders224]

I think instead of arguing about it on the internet, I'm going to ask how they're scoring it at the stage, and plan accordingly.

I have never heard of a 'disappearing target' that is not a moving one, but I don't see any compelling reason the same rules couldn't be used.

What on earth do you constitute as "arguing?" I'm asking a question about the rules in a rules sub-forum.

But I did like how you posted this caustic response while at the same time saying you're not going to argue about it on the internet. That's A+ trolling.

LOL.

[motosapiens]

I think instead of arguing about it on the internet, I'm going to ask how they're scoring it at the stage, and plan accordingly.

I have never heard of a 'disappearing target' that is not a moving one, but I don't see any compelling reason the same rules couldn't be used.

What on earth do you constitute as "arguing?" I'm asking a question about the rules in a rules sub-forum.

But I did like how you posted this caustic response while at the same time saying you're not going to argue about it on the internet. That's A+ trolling.

wow, take things personal much? lol. Are you my ex-wife? She thought I was caustic too.

I didn't mean to be caustic with my choice of words. I think your questions about this stage are interesting and I've been wondering the same thing. I think ultimately tho it's going to depend on how the stage is set up and how the rules are interpeted. We already have some fairly smart people that can't really agree whether a stationary target that is not visible at rest is scored as a disappearing target.

Edited September 15, 2014 by motosapiens

[beltjones]

I think the only requirement would be in engaging and taking down the popper that activates the swinging hard cover. If the remaining poppers can't be seen once the swinging hard cover comes to rest, then they should be considered disappearing.

If they leave the stage in this configuration there would be no reason to even shoot at the remaining poppers after hitting the first one to start the movement of the swinging hard cover. There are simply not enough points in targets to justify wasting the time to engage more poppers. That is if the poppers are set one in front of the other and you can only see one at a time.

Like others have said, we really don't know what the best strategy is going to be for this until we can actually see how they set it up.

If they set it up so the steel is in front of one another and they are considered DT's, then its a pointless shooting challenge. Why they would try to do something like that at the nationals is beyond me as these stages should have been fully reviewed and approved by NROI, USPSA President, RM, MD, etc.

That's exactly what I was thinking. But then I read the rules to make sure I wasn't missing something, and it occurred to me that moving hardcover that obscures a fixed target isn't exactly covered in the book.

[CHA-LEE]

I think the only requirement would be in engaging and taking down the popper that activates the swinging hard cover. If the remaining poppers can't be seen once the swinging hard cover comes to rest, then they should be considered disappearing.

If they leave the stage in this configuration there would be no reason to even shoot at the remaining poppers after hitting the first one to start the movement of the swinging hard cover. There are simply not enough points in targets to justify wasting the time to engage more poppers. That is if the poppers are set one in front of the other and you can only see one at a time.

Like others have said, we really don't know what the best strategy is going to be for this until we can actually see how they set it up.

If they set it up so the steel is in front of one another and they are considered DT's, then its a pointless shooting challenge. Why they would try to do something like that at the nationals is beyond me as these stages should have been fully reviewed and approved by NROI, USPSA President, RM, MD, etc.

That's exactly what I was thinking. But then I read the rules to make sure I wasn't missing something, and it occurred to me that moving hardcover that obscures a fixed target isn't exactly covered in the book.

I totally understand where you are coming from. Hopefully the Nationals Staff is thinking about or has a strategy in how to handle this situation BEFORE the match even starts. I think it would be a huge failure if this kind of thing needed to be hashed out during the match the first time a shooter does it.

But as you already know, how many times have we seen funky stuff in prereleased WSB's only to find that it has been completely changed and not an issue when we get to the match? I have personally seen this happen quite often. Or the match staff fails to rectify the situation and it leads to a forbidden action being declared or the whole stage gets thrown out. The match staff is fully empowered to make any situation as easy or as difficult as it has to be. As a match director, there would be no way that I would put a stage like that in any level of match. Its a pointless shooting challenge that would result in a lower hit factor if completed as intended. Not too much gray matter effort is needed to come to that conclusion.

[Poppa Bear]

Without seeing the diagram, because I am on my phone, I would change it during construction so that the targets do not disappear. Now you have to engage past the swinging HC. I would also offset the targets so that an accurate shooter could take PP 2- PP5 while shooting past the edge of PP1. Miss and tag PP1 and the swinger makes things more difficult.

[TinCan]

First thing There are no moving targets on this stage!!! Targets stay in the same spot!!! The targets do not move they do not disappear!!

the targets can not be seen by RULE look it up rather than argue. Nothing in rule 9.9 applies.

you ask for the rule and then chose to ignore it.

.

[beltjones]

First thing There are no moving targets on this stage!!! Targets stay in the same spot!!! The targets do not move they do not disappear!!

the targets can not be seen by RULE look it up rather than argue. Nothing in rule 9.9 applies.

you ask for the rule and then chose to ignore it.

.

Uh, what?

[TinCan]

Uh what show me the moving targets

[MarkCO]

Actually, I think someone intentionally found a little glitch and has exploited it in the stage design.

From the definition section of the 2014 Handgun Rulebook:

Disappearing target .......... A target which when activated and after completing its movement is no longer available for engagement.

So by definition, those poppers at issue, while they will disappear from being able to be shot, are not considered to be disappearing targets by the rulebook. Since they are not paper targets, the 25% A-zone requirement is not applicable. But there is more...

If a lot of people call for calibration, it might get it tossed. How could the RM shoot poppers 2-4 if the window is closed? Just open the window? Then that is not as presented to the competitor.

However, I might argue that it is not a legal course of fire per this rule:

4.3.1.5 Scoring metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score. Scoring poppers which fail to fall when hit are subject to the provisions of Appendix C1, 6 & 7. Scoring metal targets which a Range Officer deems to have fallen or overturned due to a shot on the supporting apparatus or prematurely fallen or moved for any reason will be treated as range equipment failure. (See Rule 4.6.1). All Poppers shall follow the guidelines below:

1. That a minimum of 50% of the calibration zone be available at some point in the COF.

Unless the back 3 poppers have 50% visible from the edges of the shooting area, they would not meet this criteria, therefore they would not be legal.

[TinCan]

which target has been activated and is now moving?

Edited September 15, 2014 by TinCan