need help: low recoil load not right

[boomerhc9]

Hey everyone! I need some help, and figure someone here may have had the same issues I have had. About a year and a half ago, I went to my first local ipsc match at my friends suggestion. It's an indoor match which is great as it gets cold around here over the winter. This is kind of a long story, so if you want to skip to the part where I need help, start at paragraph 3.

Anyway, i shot my first stage and did horrible. when the results were sent out, it showed I shot 14th out of 15 production shooters on that stage.

After that stage, an older gentleman came up and started talking to me about ammo. When I told him I was shooting 115 grains, he hands me a mag or two worth of his ammo, and tells me to try his on the next stage. It was incredible, the bullets where hitting exactly where the dot of my front sight were pointed, and the transitions between targets (gradually getting farther away) were super quick. but the best part was that the slide was the only thing that moved. It just looked like the sights were getting closer, then moving back forward. It was like shooting a .22 out of a 9mm gun.

We got to talking and he told me he's a grand master, and has been using this load a long time. He tells me it's a 147 grain bullet over 3.2 grains of titegroup. he didn't have info on the length, and said to measure the ones I had left over. I only had 1 left over, so tried that, but the gun bucked like crazy, which I then tracked down to too much crimp, which was swaging the base of the bullet.

A few matches later, I ran into him again, and he gave me a few more rounds to measure. and said I may have to jump the powder up to 3.3 grains. well, two rounds were at 1.133 coal, and another at 1.126 coal. I've been chasing this load down for well over a year, and just can't hone in on it.

here is the data from the bullets I pulled: coal 1.126

bullet: berrys 146.9

case w/ charge and primer: 64.5 grains

crimp: .377 at case mouth

case weight: 61.4 grains

powder weight: 3.0 grains after settling. started at 3.2 then dropped to 3.1 then settled at 3.0

the powder did look like titegroup.

coal: 1.133

berrys 145.7

case w/ charge and primer: 64.8 grains

crimp: .377 at case mouth

case weight:61.7 grains

powder weight: 3.0 grains

again, looked like titegroup

Since then, i've tried every conceivable length, and still can't find that load. I've tried 1.100 1.110, 1.120, 1.130, 1.140, 1.150 but they all seem to have too much recoil to be the same load. last week at the range, I tried dropping grains, all the way down to 2.3 grains of titegroup, 1.126, but that load still had more recoil (though very light) and kind of bucked the gun again. I just don't know what to try now.

It looked like the gm was shooting an m&p or a glock. I shoot a bersa thunder 9 pro, w/ 4.25 inch barrel, with polygonal rifling. in the meantime while waiting for berrys, I have also been shooting a lot of lead, and just cleaning out the barrel well, between range visits.

Edited August 11, 2014 by boomerhc9

[boomerhc9]

when I was having issues the first time, when I saw him, he told me the crimp was only enough to get the belling out of the case mouth from the expanding process.

[boomerhc9]

by the way, I'm now using wichester small pistol primers, as that is what my reloading supply guy has readily available at all times. I'm also set with titegroup as it is cheap, and my guy always has it.

at first I was using federal primers, and cci when this all started. not sure that it makes a huge difference

Also, with all the length and powder weight combinations I've tried, none of the rounds seem anywhere near as acurate as when he gave me his ammo to try.

I know recoil is subjective, but after chasing this for so long, I can tell pretty quick when a test load is not right.

On the stage he gave me his ammo to try, I was 7 out of 15 shooters.

[Hi-Power Jack]

1. primers will make almost NO difference

2. with such a small charge of powder, I'd guess there is Very Little difference

in velocity from 1.1 to 1.15" OAL

3. reminds me of the day I got new golf clubs - couldn't do Anything wrong - hit

everything right where it should go.

Couldn't wait to get out the next day to play again.

Back to the Old Me - the clubs must have lost their magic overnite.

You are chasing your recollection of the first time you went from a 115 bucker

to a 147 grain soft load.

Probably never going to find it again, because it now exists only in your memory.

Load 'em up, practice, and enjoy - no PF 130 9mm load has no recoil and is

magically accurate - but good luck trying - if you find it , pls let me know.

p.s. crimp is NOT crimp - just straigtening the case and removing the bell,

just like the Master told you.

[superdude]

Perceived recoil is subjective and subject to many factors (gun design, weight, position of the planets, etc.). But recoil force produced by a load is objective and measurable.

The "formula" you were given by those loads was a good one to keep recoil low = heavy bullet powered by a fast burning powder that requires a small charge weight. Titegroup is good because it requires very little charge weight for relatively high velocity. You won't find many powders better suited for this purpose. WST might work, but the difference in recoil between TG and WST is very small, in my experience.

The OAL should be determined by what fits and feeds reliably in your gun. As the bullet is seated deeper, pressure goes up, as well as velocity, and so should recoil.

I'm surprised you could get your gun to cycle with 2.3 grains of powder. That's really light. Maybe check your scale to make sure it's reading correctly.

The perplexing question is why his loads had so much less recoil than yours. Has your perception changed? That's possible.

Options: You could try a heavier bullet, but your options are limited. IMI makes a 158 gr FMJ bullet, and I've also used Berry's 158 gr .358 bullets in my 38 Super. It's a very soft shooter. But I'm not sure how well the Berry's 158 would fit in a short 9mm Luger case (it might bulge it at the base). The IMI bullet has a boat-tail.

You can learn a little more about recoil at the link below.

http://38super.net/Pages/Recoil.html

[rowdyb]

plated bullet 147

3.2 of titgroup

winchester spp

mixed brass

1.130 oal for cz. 1.150 for glock.

.377 crimp

love this load. have shot probably 20,000 of it in the past two years.

[boomerhc9]

thanks high power jack. Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking lately too, but the accuracy is not as good with my latest attempts at that load, so that's why I think I'm still off somehow.

[boomerhc9]

Load 'em up, practice, and enjoy - no PF 130 9mm load has no recoil and is

magically accurate - but good luck trying - if you find it , pls let me know.

p.s. crimp is NOT crimp - just straigtening the case and removing the bell,

just like the Master told you.

that's also something I've been thinking about lately, there is no guarantee that they were at powerfactor. THe match is a local match with no chronograph, so I guess it might be possible his ammo was right at power factor. Which is what I considered at first because there was only 3.0 grains in the cases I pulled.

[boomerhc9]

The OAL should be determined by what fits and feeds reliably in your gun. As the bullet is seated deeper, pressure goes up, as well as velocity, and so should recoil.

I'm surprised you could get your gun to cycle with 2.3 grains of powder. That's really light. Maybe check your scale to make sure it's reading correctly.

yep, all of the lengths I tried fed and fired, when I went down to 2.1 grains, I essentialy couldn't stay loose and have the gun go back into battery. I had to stay tense like a statue.

his mention of going up in the powder charge doesn't make sense with what I'm seeing with all my testing.

[boomerhc9]

oh yeah, forgot to mention, that I calibrate my scale every time before I start loading. It's a frankford arsenal digital scale.

[boomerhc9]

plated bullet 147

3.2 of titgroup

winchester spp

mixed brass

1.130 oal for cz. 1.150 for glock.

.377 crimp

love this load. have shot probably 20,000 of it in the past two years.

hey rowdy, yeah, that kind of sounds like my load, does it still feel like no recoil now that you've been shooting it for years?

[superdude]

Here is something you could try for fun.

Shoot your old load with 115 grain bullets along side the 147 grain load. You should be able to feel a difference.

[boomerhc9]

Here is something you could try for fun.

Shoot your old load with 115 grain bullets along side the 147 grain load. You should be able to feel a difference.

ok, I'll try that. I've still got it writen down, and I think my guy sells 115 berrys.

I'll be pissed if it's just me, and my test loads have been right the whole time.

[boomerhc9]

As a side note, I do have a lead load that I've shot inbetween berrys shipments that is pretty light in a moderate weight bullet, it's still nowhere near as soft as that first match with 147's though.

[ipscjoe]

When a batter gets ready to hit they swing bats with weights or two or three bats. That way when they actually get up to plate their bat seems lighter and they swing with more speed. I think you are experiencing this with your ammo. You went from hotter to lighter. I sometimes do this at the beginning of a practice session. I shoot hotter ammo that way my regular stuff feels like a toy.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Shoot your old load with 115 grain bullets along side the 147 grain load.

ok, I'll try that.

I'll bet that answers your question re: recoil.

The accuracy factor is different. You don't mention how inaccurate your current loads

are, but crimping could be a factor, or the Berry's bullets

(I've heard others say they

CANNOT get accuracy from those bullets - you might try a BBI or something else

that is more accurate, if you don't want to use MG JHP's.

Good luck - hope you find that "unicorn".

[rowdyb]

plated bullet 147

3.2 of titgroup

winchester spp

mixed brass

1.130 oal for cz. 1.150 for glock.

.377 crimp

love this load. have shot probably 20,000 of it in the past two years.

hey rowdy, yeah, that kind of sounds like my load, does it still feel like no recoil now that you've been shooting it for years?

Yes it does.

I to have done the load a mystery mag with 115s and a mag with 147s. I get tempted when i see how much cheaper 115s are. Then I do this test and I like the 147 mag better every time.

My friends who shoot factory, I let them shoot a mag of mine and they always say "who, this is like cheating." hahaha. That's a 129pf versus a 145pf, goodness.

[SilverBolt]

Your accuracy has gone to crap because you powder charge is too light. Are you using the exact same bullet as your GM? Do not crimp 9mm. Just remove the bell. Insure your barrel is free from any lead. That will have an impact on accuracy as well as recoil. Load to the maximum length your barrel will allow. My go to soft recoil minor load is 147gr Montana Gold CMJ bullet, 3.4gr of Bullseye, loaded to 1.15 for my Glock. Soft, accurate, and fun to shoot.

[alma]

My load for my Glock 34 used to be

147 gr Berrys

3.1 of Titegroup (3.2 if I am going to shoot a major match and want more cushion for the chrono.

Around 1.14 OAL

If you are having accuracy issues on tumbling try backing off your crimp.

[boomerhc9]

Shoot your old load with 115 grain bullets along side the 147 grain load.

ok, I'll try that.

I'll bet that answers your question re: recoil.

The accuracy factor is different. You don't mention how inaccurate your current loads

are, but crimping could be a factor, or the Berry's bullets

(I've heard others say they

CANNOT get accuracy from those bullets - you might try a BBI or something else

that is more accurate, if you don't want to use MG JHP's.

Good luck - hope you find that "unicorn".

ok, i'll pull a few tonight and double check. I forgot to mention, but I don't crimp with the lee factory crimp die anymore, as it over crimps no matter what I do. Ive crimped with the seating die and seter stem removed for the last few years.

[boomerhc9]

plated bullet 147

3.2 of titgroup

winchester spp

mixed brass

1.130 oal for cz. 1.150 for glock.

.377 crimp

love this load. have shot probably 20,000 of it in the past two years.

hey rowdy, yeah, that kind of sounds like my load, does it still feel like no recoil now that you've been shooting it for years?

Yes it does.

I to have done the load a mystery mag with 115s and a mag with 147s. I get tempted when i see how much cheaper 115s are. Then I do this test and I like the 147 mag better every time.

My friends who shoot factory, I let them shoot a mag of mine and they always say "who, this is like cheating." hahaha. That's a 129pf versus a 145pf, goodness.

so say you load up 300 rounds a week, starting over every week, every match on friday the ammo still feels like its not recoiling? or does it feel different after say 2 months of shooting the same load?

[boomerhc9]

Your accuracy has gone to crap because you powder charge is too light. Are you using the exact same bullet as your GM? Do not crimp 9mm. Just remove the bell. Insure your barrel is free from any lead. That will have an impact on accuracy as well as recoil. Load to the maximum length your barrel will allow. My go to soft recoil minor load is 147gr Montana Gold CMJ bullet, 3.4gr of Bullseye, loaded to 1.15 for my Glock. Soft, accurate, and fun to shoot.

yep, exactly the same. he told me berrys 147 gr. round nose. he told me the crimp only removes the belling at the case mouth. I guess it's possible I'm still over crimping somehow, but not sure other than to pull a handfull of bullets. I'll have to go find some pliers.

oh yes. I detail strip my pistol the 19th of every month, and clean my barrel the night after I shoot untill it's reflective like a mirror again. Then relube. I've been kind of seeing tiny hints that I might have just a little ocd.

Edited August 12, 2014 by boomerhc9

[boomerhc9]

My load for my Glock 34 used to be

147 gr Berrys

3.1 of Titegroup (3.2 if I am going to shoot a major match and want more cushion for the chrono.

Around 1.14 OAL

If you are having accuracy issues on tumbling try backing off your crimp.

ok, I'll check right now. wasn't 100% sure I had tumbling last time, as the bullet holes weren't completely sideways, but the holes were a little oblong shaped.

[rowdyb]

measure the crimp on a factory round with calipers, then set your crimp to match that. for me that is .377 to remove my belling and to be good. in most of the barrels in most of my guns.

to the other question, i load about 900-1000 a week of the load i mentioned. 600 or so for practice and then 300 for the match weekend. the load always feel the same to me. never feels different, always feels soft.

but sometimes i look at how much more 115grain bullets i can buy for $300 versus 147grain bullets. so i order a sample pack or borrow some and load them up. i'll go to the range and load a mag full of the 115 and the 147 in a different mag. shuffle them around in my shooting bag and load the gun with my eyes closed. shoot the full mag. put the other mag in and shoot it. i can tell which one is the 147's and i like it better. so i stick with that grain bullet.

it would take a lot for me to switch from 147 plated, 3.2 titegroup.

[CZ85Combat]

You don't pull bullets with pliers! you get a bullet puller. are you using a taper crimp Or a factory crimp die? If you are using a factory crimp die, get rid of it and get a taper crimp die.