What would you do?

[whitedog]

Russian? Really? Thank god that English is the mandated language in USPSA.

As to the OP, I think you handled it correctly. Given the info you had at the time you made a call. Then given more info you reversed it. The only difference I would have done is after the match gone over nominclature and such with the shooter. So as to not happen again.

[motosapiens]

Russian? Really? Thank god that English is the mandated language in USPSA.

As to the OP, I think you handled it correctly. Given the info you had at the time you made a call. Then given more info you reversed it. The only difference I would have done is after the match gone over nominclature and such with the shooter. So as to not happen again.

But the problem is in english it's not always clear whether you're talking about a completed action or the process of an action, and that is a very important distinction that leads to disagreements on the meaning of 'holstering'.

But whatever, I personally would not call a dq on something I didn't see. If I asked the shooter and he said he had flipped the safety on, I would give myself a mental kick for not noticing the safety, and I would explain to the shooter that if I had actually seen it, he would be dq'd. Then I would pay more attention.

[Sarge]

Of course a gun is holstered even if your hand is on it. Just like it can be unholstered with your hand not on it like laying on a table. The gun is either in a holster or not.

[motosapiens]

Of course a gun is holstered even if your hand is on it. Just like it can be unholstered with your hand not on it like laying on a table. The gun is either in a holster or not.

Yes, but not really the issue of contention here.

[ChuckS]

I tried to learn Czech but my Czech buddies told me there was no point and continue using English! So, given my poor English, I would do the following for the scenario in post # 20 :

1) I would call a UGH DQ based on the appropriate part of 10.5.11 and my possibly misguided belief that "holstering" means the act of putting the gun in the holster and the high probability that "holstering" would not be be occurring without the hand on the firearm..

2) Watch you bet your $100 on your language analysis.

3) Move on with life.

Later,

Chuck

[motosapiens]

I tried to learn Czech but my Czech buddies told me there was no point and continue using English! So, given my poor English, I would do the following for the scenario in post # 20 :

1) I would call a UGH DQ based on the appropriate part of 10.5.11 and my possibly misguided belief that "holstering" means the act of putting the gun in the holster and the high probability that "holstering" would not be be occurring without the hand on the firearm..

2) Watch you bet your $100 on your language analysis.

3) Move on with life.

Later,

Chuck

Assuming this is something you actually *saw* (a thread drift from the OT), DQ would probably be appropriate for either the perfective or imperfective aspect of the verb, but for different rules (as explained above).

Edited August 12, 2014 by motosapiens

[gng4life]

I think you did the right thing although a little further questioning to determine if it was the firearm/thumb safety or the holster safety would have cleared it up right away. Although it's not an official range command, it could still fall under safety warnings, which are permitted.

Also, DAA calls the lever on the back of the RM as a "safety lever" so I can see where this got confused.

[GrumpyOne]

I call BS....that dude was messing with the safety of his gun, got DQ'ed, and ran and told his buddies, and they came up with a plausible reason to get you to overturn the DQ and let him shoot. I would have had him prove that the click you heard was from the holster...by demonstrating that click, if there was one, and the click from his safety....both on and off...In my opinion, you got suckered and they laughed about it on the way home....

[Sarge]

I call BS....that dude was messing with the safety of his gun, got DQ'ed, and ran and told his buddies, and they came up with a plausible reason to get you to overturn the DQ and let him shoot. I would have had him prove that the click you heard was from the holster...by demonstrating that click, if there was one, and the click from his safety....both on and off...In my opinion, you got suckered and they laughed about it on the way home....

Agreed.

[motosapiens]

I call BS....that dude was messing with the safety of his gun, got DQ'ed, and ran and told his buddies, and they came up with a plausible reason to get you to overturn the DQ and let him shoot. I would have had him prove that the click you heard was from the holster...by demonstrating that click, if there was one, and the click from his safety....both on and off...In my opinion, you got suckered and they laughed about it on the way home....

That is quite possible. You open the door to a lot of annoying stuff if you call DQ's based on hearsay rather than personal observation.

[teros135]

I pulled a boner today RO'ing

Shooter comes to the line, faces down range.

I give the make ready command, while he is doing it something else caught my attention( I cannot rmember what it was and I am usually very observant at watching the LAMD process) wrong but never the less I did it.

Shooter turns and faces uprange and I am standing off to the side because he is a right handed shooter and assume he will turn that way.

At "Are You ready" he removes his hand and reaches down to his holster area and I here a click, mind you I am already a little freaked that I was not watching as closely as I should of and I hear a click.

I said "stop, did you just engage your safety" he responded "yes".

This is the piece that stands out for me. You asked if he just engaged his safety, and he said "yes". There's no need to question "intent" or whatever - he said he just engaged the safety. He had holstered an unsafe gun, in violation of 8.1.2.1 and 8.1.2.4, and these refer to penalties in 10.5.11.1, which is match DQ for UGH.

I then informed him that placing the gun in the holster(single action semi auto) was a DQ offense and I was forced to DQ him. And you were right. He said fine but he had been allowed to do it at the "5" previous matches he had shot. Well, that's not in the rule book, right?

At the next stage he and another shooter approached me and explained that he had only been unlocking his DAA holster when I stopped him. Sorry, the call's already been made. If you were 100% sure of what you saw/heard, that's it. (Perhaps they were trying to get you to doubt yourself...)

I responded that I asked him if he had just engaged his safety and that he had responded "YES" and that was the reason for the DQ. And you were right, again.

Upon listening to both His statement that he considered the holster lock to be a "safety" I personally took him back to the previous stage and allowed him to shoot it and apologized for the mis-communication. Oops!

He later stopped me and said that I could have asked the question in a different manner?

I responded that the USPSA considers the "thumb safety on a 1911 type firearm to be the only "SAFETY" on the gun. Oh, come on. He was saying that he didn't understand what the "safety" is on a single-action 1911-type gun? (He may also be unsure what the meaning of the word "is" is....)

How would you have done it differently??????

Mildot

Comments above, in blue.

Thanks, Mildot, for offering this example. We're all wanting to do the right thing, and sometimes we go overboard on giving the shooter a break. I agree that this was a grand game of "BS", and he settled it early on by admitting that he had just engaged the safety - AND that he'd been allowed to do it at 5 previous matches. He didn't come back and argue semantics until he talked to his friends. By that time, it's over, and we've all moved on. Sounds like he has a bad habit, and you were quick enough to catch it.

A good lesson for all of us. Thanks.

[teros135]

A quick additional thought. When you holster at LAMR, don't you put the gun safety ON (engage it) and turn the holster retention lever OFF (disengage it) - so you can draw the gun at the sound of the Start buzzer? Why would he have "engaged" the holster's retention lock?

Yeah, it's what we think it is...

[mildot1]

I started this post so I guess I need to hang on until it's finished.

I continued to RO this shooter the rest of the day and I am in no way making fun of anyone but I have NEVER seen anyone have as much trouble getting a gun in a holster.

He was using a DAA Race Master with some kind of add on muzzle rod(similiar to a CR speed or Safari Land) and could not get the gun in and the post lined up with out messing with the latches 2-3 times. The one stage that I did not RO I saw the gun in the holster and the bore not in the post and I just stood there wondering what was going to happen next?

I guess what I saying is you had to be there and observe the behavior to understand why I gave the benefit of the doubt to the shooter. If I got suckered once, so be it.

Like I said in the FIRST post I screwed up by taking my eyes off the shooter at LAMR, If I had not I would have never had to ask!

Mea Culpa

Mildot1

[gng4life]

... Why would he have "engaged" the holster's retention lock?

Yeah, it's what we think it is...

I do. It's my habit now to check to make sure my safety lever is off so to make it consistent, I go through the motions and do it the same way every time. I do this now as once I forgot to take it off and got a heck of a wedgy

Now, do I believe it was the gun safety...yeah, I'm in that direction. However, I would not DQ him if I was not watching it and see it myself or another stage RO saw it and was sure. Or unless he wanted to admit it was the thumb safety.

And yes, my RM makes a click that sounds like my thumb safety and since both are called "safeties", ...you get the point.

[gng4life]

I continued to RO this shooter the rest of the day and I am in no way making fun of anyone but I have NEVER seen anyone have as much trouble getting a gun in a holster.

He was using a DAA Race Master with some kind of add on muzzle rod(similiar to a CR speed or Safari Land) and could not get the gun in and the post lined up with out messing with the latches 2-3 times. The one stage that I did not RO I saw the gun in the holster and the bore not in the post and I just stood there wondering what was going to happen next?

That's the new Muzzle Support Assembly that DAA sells. I have one on order so I don't know how they line up and work but it sounds like he didn't know what he was doing with it. I probably would have asked him to go to the Safe Area with me and check it out.

[mildot1]

I continued to RO this shooter the rest of the day and I am in no way making fun of anyone but I have NEVER seen anyone have as much trouble getting a gun in a holster.

He was using a DAA Race Master with some kind of add on muzzle rod(similiar to a CR speed or Safari Land) and could not get the gun in and the post lined up with out messing with the latches 2-3 times. The one stage that I did not RO I saw the gun in the holster and the bore not in the post and I just stood there wondering what was going to happen next?

That's the new Muzzle Support Assembly that DAA sells. I have one on order so I don't know how they line up and work but it sounds like he didn't know what he was doing with it. I probably would have asked him to go to the Safe Area with me and check it out.

And what rule would you have used?

Mildot

[gng4life]

I continued to RO this shooter the rest of the day and I am in no way making fun of anyone but I have NEVER seen anyone have as much trouble getting a gun in a holster.

He was using a DAA Race Master with some kind of add on muzzle rod(similiar to a CR speed or Safari Land) and could not get the gun in and the post lined up with out messing with the latches 2-3 times. The one stage that I did not RO I saw the gun in the holster and the bore not in the post and I just stood there wondering what was going to happen next?

That's the new Muzzle Support Assembly that DAA sells. I have one on order so I don't know how they line up and work but it sounds like he didn't know what he was doing with it. I probably would have asked him to go to the Safe Area with me and check it out.

And what rule would you have used?

Mildot

You need a rule to validate the safety of a holster?? That's more of a courtesy thing and if I'm the MD/RM, he/she must show that it is safe if I feel it will be unsafe to the shooter/RO/bystanders. However, if you want to get technical, Rule #5.2.6.

[AJE]

I call BS....that dude was messing with the safety of his gun, got DQ'ed, and ran and told his buddies, and they came up with a plausible reason to get you to overturn the DQ and let him shoot. I would have had him prove that the click you heard was from the holster...by demonstrating that click, if there was one, and the click from his safety....both on and off...In my opinion, you got suckered and they laughed about it on the way home....

I thought the same.

[EkuJustice]

I engage mine when I holster it and the. Give if a tug to make sure it's locked in before I remove hand. I then flip the lock off the holster

[JAFO]

That's the new Muzzle Support Assembly that DAA sells. I have one on order so I don't know how they line up and work but it sounds like he didn't know what he was doing with it. I probably would have asked him to go to the Safe Area with me and check it out.

And what rule would you have used?

Mildot

Honestly, that's something I would ask even if I was just another shooter on the squad. No need to be an RO and quote a rule if someone's equipment looks out of whack.