223 AR, which ball powders necessitate hotter primers?

[soflarick]

I have a lot of CCI 450s and Wolk 556 primers, both hotter than the CCI 400s I've been using. It's my understanding that ball powders "need" a hotter primer because they are more resistant to ignition. I'd like to find out which ball powders for an AR type rifle in 223 caliber would function best with hotter than standard primers. I have CFE223, Re10x and 15, Varget, 2230. Thinking of tryping Benchmark or PP 1200r. I don't have enough of any of them to load much, but I'd like to be armed with some information when I powder search again. Thanks.

[dauntedfuture]

you don't need to worry about it in .223 unless your going to shoot in -20F weather. I have loaded countless 10's of thousands of .223 with all kinds of primers without any issues. The only reloading primer issues I have had were in .30-06 that needed a magnum primer to light the surplus stick powder I was using. Best accuracy usually comes with mild primers, not hot ones.

[soflarick]

How did you determine the surplus stick powder needed mag primers? This is an education for me.

I presume using a chrony to see SD and ES of a cartridge would assist in determining if the primer is doing its job properly. Inconsistencies in chrony data would help, but I'm aware of other variables affecting what the chrony shows.

Are WSR primers considered acceptable for AR usage? I've seen conflicting info online about it. Not just cup thickness, but the metal used to form the cup that has changed how Winchester primers handle floating firing pins.

I believe I've seen somewhere that Win SR primers are a bit hotter than the CCI 400s, no?

Thank you for your feedback.

[moose76]

you don't need to worry about it in .223

Yes, you do need to worry about it.

I have experienced issues with H335 and Wolf 556 primers. I had hang fires and rounds with powder that failed to ignite with that combo. Switching to CCI BR4 (all I could find at the time) fixed the problem.

I don't think the Wolf primers are as hot as you think they are. Check out this webpage that shows a comparison between the flash of several different primers.

http://www.6mmbr.com/primerpix.html

You will see how little flash is generated by the PMC (Wolf) primer compared to other primers. My understanding is that CCI 400s and BR4s are very similar, except the BR4 has as thicker cup.

[RDA]

I don't think the Wolf primers are as hot as you think they are. Check out this webpage that shows a comparison between the flash of several different primers.

http://www.6mmbr.com/primerpix.html

You will see how little flash is generated by the PMC (Wolf) primer compared to other primers. My understanding is that CCI 400s and BR4s are very similar, except the BR4 has as thicker cup.

Cool link, I hadn't seen that before. I don't know how much current Wolf 5.56 primers (QQQSRM KVB-5.56M) have in common with those older PMC primers. Too bad they haven't tested the current Wolf KVB-5.56M and CCI 41 as well. Those Remington 7.5 results are surprising.

[Steve RA]

I use Tula KVB-.223 primers with H335, 10X and 748 and have had no ignition problems with them.

Now I've gone to the Tula KVB-556M for .223/5.56 and use the KVB-.223s for 9mm and .45 ACP.

Reason I switched is that the 556Ms have a thicker primer cup and switched to further prevent slam-fires, which I haven't had and do not wish to have.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Steve RA

[dauntedfuture]

click...boom... in a .30-06That's how I know there was an issue. Two rifles, same ammo. Surplus "4895" or was supposed to be. I have loaded all kinds of .223 combinations and I have never noticed an issue in .223. Some of the most accurate 55g FMJ that I loaded was with WOLF primers, the red-brass color ones, and H335. WSR are sufficiently hot for .223. The only slam fire in a .223 I ever had was with a REM 6.5 so I don't use those at all.

Yes, a chronograph will help identify if there is a powder/primer compatibility issue; if the ES is very high, that's an indicator. Of all calibers I have reloaded I only had an issue with .30-06 and standard primers and .40 with W231 and standard primers. I tried SR primers and no more issues...I also ran out od WW231 right after that so go figure.

Edited July 31, 2014 by dauntedfuture

[bigedp51]

Ball powders are double base powders with MORE deterrent coatings and require a longer hotter flame to get them burning properly.

Now think about this, Remington ran Lake City from 1941 till 1985 and were instrumental in the development of 5.56 ammunition and lighting off Winchester ball powders loaded in military 5.56 and 7.62 ammo.

A picture is worth a thousand words..................

Now ask yourselves why the Remington primers are called "baby flame throwers".

Sorry Moose76 I didn't click on the AccurateShooter link till after I posted this, making my photos redundant.

Edited July 31, 2014 by bigedp51

[soflarick]

I've seen "double base" on various cans of powder. I don't remember if they were all ball, or some were stick. Is the issue more focused on double base powders, or double base ball powders?

I recently loaded some plinkers using TAC. Metered extremely accurately, was ball powder, but I didn't look to see if it was double base. I had some CCI 400s sitting around, so I used them. Having only a pound, I ran out quickly, so I'm starting to use some Reloader 10x. That appears to be very small stick powder. Definitely not ball. I'd have to look at the can to see if it states double base. The CFE223 and AA2230 both appear to be ball.

I think a call to the powder manufacturers would be a wise decision, if nothing else but for informational purposes.

Edited August 1, 2014 by soflarick

[tcoz]

Almost everything that I've read in the literature recommends the use of CCI 450's or 41's for AR to prevent the possibility of slam fires due to the floating firing pin. 41's are the NATO military primers. They're loaded like the 450's but have a thicker cup to prevent the slam fire issue which although it isn't a common occurrence, does occur. 450's cup thickness is greater than the 400's but less than the 41's. Also, I load with H335 and when I asked Hodgdon, they recommended 450's or 41's for that powder, but it's due to the type of powder, not the slam fire issue which they wouldn't address anyway.

[twodownzero]

I load all of my ar ammunition with magnum primers for safety reasons noted above.

Every loading manual I have recommends magnum primers with the popular ball powders for .223 as well.

[Shooter115]

I just recently drained about my 20th 8 lb jug of H335 loading .223. Every one of them loaded with CCI 400 primers. From winter coyote hunting at -20ºF here in MN to scorching summer heat, never been a problem.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Shooter115

[twodownzero]

I just recently drained about my 20th 8 lb jug of H335 loading .223. Every one of them loaded with CCI 400 primers. From winter coyote hunting at -20ºF here in MN to scorching summer heat, never been a problem.

You're lucky you didn't have a slam fire.

[Shooter115]

I just recently drained about my 20th 8 lb jug of H335 loading .223. Every one of them loaded with CCI 400 primers. From winter coyote hunting at -20ºF here in MN to scorching summer heat, never been a problem.

You're lucky you didn't have a slam fire.

The only time I've heard of slam fires becoming an issue is with a lightened reciprocating system where bolt velocity is increased. I've been reloading rifle ammo for AR's since I was 16 and if I do the painful math that would be 22 years of loading with CCI 400's. I did dabble with 450's several years ago, but saw no appreciable difference in velocity deviation or accuracy. In all that time I have never had a slam fire. So I guess in the same respect, I'm lucky I haven't been struck by lightening either.

[Shooter115]

Not saying that it's impossible to happen, but with a clean and properly functioning rifle it's extremely unlikely with a full weight carrier.

[phidelt208]

you don't need to worry about it in .223

Yes, you do need to worry about it.

I have experienced issues with H335 and Wolf 556 primers. I had hang fires and rounds with powder that failed to ignite with that combo. Switching to CCI BR4 (all I could find at the time) fixed the problem.

I don't think the Wolf primers are as hot as you think they are. Check out this webpage that shows a comparison between the flash of several different primers.

http://www.6mmbr.com/primerpix.html

You will see how little flash is generated by the PMC (Wolf) primer compared to other primers. My understanding is that CCI 400s and BR4s are very similar, except the BR4 has as thicker cup.

I've HAD this issue First hand, different lots, of both primes (Tula and Wolf) and powder H335. For me about every third round wouldn't completely burn all the powder. Only turn it yellow. I never had the Hang fires, but I only shot about 20 before I was said " to hell with this"

Same fix I have had 3k H335 and CCI primers combo in 3 gun matches with zero problems.

Edited September 8, 2014 by phidelt208

[bigedp51]

In the early testing phase of the M16 rifle slam fires occurred when a single round wad loaded without the magazine in place to slow down bolt velocity. The cure was simple, Colt lightened the firing pin and this reduced slam fire probability to 1 in 10,000,000 chance.

One more time, when Remington ran Lake City they didn't use CCI #41 and #34 primers for two reasons, these primers were not invented yet and they were not needed. Remington used their 7 1/2 primer at Lake City for the 5.56 NATO cartridge and it worked just fine.

When loading for the AR15 rifle only primers with a cup thickness of .025 should be used to prevent slam fires.

[RDA]

When loading for the AR15 rifle only primers with a cup thickness of .025 should be used to prevent slam fires.

Federal 205M are also considered acceptable for the AR platform.

[SonOfSpartans]

According to CCI it takes more than just an issue with primer sensitivity to have issues with slam fire. Thoughts?

[bigedp51]

According to CCI it takes more than just an issue with primer sensitivity to have issues with slam fire. Thoughts?

The only difference in the CCI #34 and #41 primers is the anvil height is shorter which makes the primer harder to set off.

This begs the question of how did the military do "WITHOUT" these primers from the M1 Garand, M14 and M16 prior to 2001 when ATK won the contract to produce ammunition at Lake City.

Both the M14 and M16 had slam fire problems in their early testing phase and the fix was to lighten the firing pin. On top of this the military requires the primer to be seated and recessed .008 "below" the rear of the case. The vast majority of slam fires are caused by improperly reloaded ammunition and operator error.