How do you handle a DQ?

[High Lord Gomer]

I had to DQ a new competitor this weekend. It was our second stage. We were shooting CM 09-07. We had finished scoring and pasting and I was the last one back. I still hadn't made it to the table when the next shooter walked up, drew his gun, and placed it on the table.

I said, "Aww, man...I wish you hadn't done that. Not only am I still downrange but you are not allow to handle your weapon until told "Make Read". I'm sorry but you are done for today."

I went ahead and brought the next shooter up and ran him before realizing that I probably needed to have a longer talk with the guy. By the time I got ready he was already gone.

We had several new faces there this weekend so I did my normal safety briefing which includes:

This run as a cold range, which, among other things, means that your gun has to stay unloaded and in your holster at all times until brought to the line by an RO and told to "Make Ready". The only exception to that is that you can handle your firearm in the safe area over there pointing toward the berm. Make sure that you keep it pointed toward the berm and do not handle any ammunition in the safe area. You can have ammo on your belt or in your bag but do not handle it in the safe area.

In the future, if I have to DQ someone, I will hand the timer to another RO so I can go over it with them better.

I have had to adjust / add things to my normal safety briefing as a result of mistakes people have made (dropped gun, drawing before turning, etc). I will also be a little more explicit about the gun handling. I did have another shooter reach for his gun before I said anything. I had already cleared the area and was getting ready so I quickly said, "Make Ready" before he got it out. I also let him know that he almost got DQ'd for doing that.

Any other suggestions for how you guys handle DQs?

[Sarge]

Hey Mike,

I probably do it about the way you envision doing it in the future. If there is another RO to hand the timer to I will just so it doesn't look to the new guy like I don't care about him. But I won't get into a long discussion about things. I will quote some rules to him and basically answer any questions he might have but then I am back to work with the rest of the squad. If they do the right thing and stick around to help, other squad members typically take them under their wing and talk to them about rules and DQ's etc.

Where I differ from you though is I would never rush a command to keep a guy from drawing a gun and getting DQ'ed. If they draw it they own it and I am sorry but I won't give them a quick "make ready" to keep them in the game.

Got a kick out of a guy yesterday who stepped to the line yesterday and says, "May I make ready?" I couldn't help it and I probably sounded like a dick but I gave him my most sarcastic, "Nooo". And then said "Make ready". He kind of had the facial expression of , "what the heck was that all about"?

[kevin c]

New shooters, I agree, it's good to go over what happened in a sympathetic way. I'd like them to come back and compete (safely), and that often won't happen if they're first impression of competiton is an unmitigatedly negative one.

"Saving the shooter"? If he's new I think I'd do it, but wouild take the time to explain what almost happened and that such a pass is not routinely given. An experienced competitor should know better, though.

I've seen myself and read here about too many RO/competitor miscommunications leading to DQ's for gun handling before the "Make ready" command to be taken aback if they ask to make ready before I've said anything, or even afterwards (I don't think I mumble, but apparently I do).

[Pat Miles]

Mike,

You could add a brief suggestion that everybody should be read and be knowledgeable of the rule book. It is their responsibility to do so, so if a DQ is issued, they are responsible for being sent home. This takes the onus off of the RO and places it squarely on the back of the offender.

I would also hand off the clock and spend a few minutes with the shooter that was DQ'd, making sure he understood why it was done and that it was not personal. A little diplomacy goes a long way to soothe the sting.

Pat

[Tim/GA]

OP, could not tell from what you wrote- are you the RM (or as is often the case at locals the MD/RM)? If not, it is not only a very good idea but also by the letter of the rules to notify the RM as soon as you can. I am that person and have asked our ROs to send someone to get tell me right away- whether a "regular" shooter, a new shooter, the shooter is questioning the call or they understand. Also, this lets the RO tell the shooter what they did and then I can explain in more detail, etc.

When I am ROing, I hand off the timer to spend a bit longer talking to the shooter who DQ'ed.

[High Lord Gomer]

Kevin and Kevin...we don't have many certified ROs. When we started I don't know that we had any so it was not uncommon for people to be told anything from "Maker her hot" to "Go ahead". This was one of those very infrequent shooters who used to come around years ago. Hopefully my warning will have an impact on future performance.

Thanks, Pat...that wording is much better.

Tim, LOL yep...I also wash the bottles and pretend to be a welder. That's a good point though because it is mostly just two of us from the club that run it. We should make our roles more clearly defined when we both can be there.

[Sarge]

New shooters, I agree, it's good to go over what happened in a sympathetic way. I'd like them to come back and compete (safely), and that often won't happen if they're first impression of competiton is an unmitigatedly negative one.

"Saving the shooter"? If he's new I think I'd do it, but wouild take the time to explain what almost happened and that such a pass is not routinely given. An experienced competitor should know better, though.

I've seen myself and read here about too many RO/competitor miscommunications leading to DQ's for gun handling before the "Make ready" command to be taken aback if they ask to make ready before I've said anything, or even afterwards (I don't think I mumble, but apparently I do).

It's one thing for a shooter to verify if you told him to make ready. It's just plain goofy to walk to the line and ask if you can make ready. Talk about setting the stage for bad communications. What if I had said, absolutely not, no friggin' way on god's green earth can you make ready", and then he drew the gun? Did I say make ready? Yep.

[CZinSC]

Kevin and Kevin...we don't have many certified ROs. When we started I don't know that we had any so it was not uncommon for people to be told anything from "Maker her hot" to "Go ahead".

Sounds like the kind of place you'd hear a range command like "load and make sexy".

[twodownzero]

My favorite one locally is "clear to handle."

[Pat Miles]

It's just plain goofy to walk to the line and ask if you can make ready. Talk about setting the stage for bad communications. What if I had said, absolutely not, no friggin' way on god's green earth can you make ready", and then he drew the gun? Did I say make ready? Yep.

Huh?

Unless I am missing something, how did you say "make ready" after saying absolutely not, no friggin way...?

Pat

[sfinney]

It's just plain goofy to walk to the line and ask if you can make ready. Talk about setting the stage for bad communications. What if I had said, absolutely not, no friggin' way on god's green earth can you make ready", and then he drew the gun? Did I say make ready? Yep.

Huh?

Unless I am missing something, how did you say "make ready" after saying absolutely not, no friggin way...?

Pat

Because the lady two words of his statement were "make ready"

[Pat Miles]

It's just plain goofy to walk to the line and ask if you can make ready. Talk about setting the stage for bad communications. What if I had said, absolutely not, no friggin' way on god's green earth can you make ready", and then he drew the gun? Did I say make ready? Yep.

Huh?

Unless I am missing something, how did you say "make ready" after saying absolutely not, no friggin way...?

Pat

Because the lady two words of his statement were "make ready"

So the shooter can pick and choose the words he wants to follow and the statement as a whole means nothing?

Don't get me wrong, I am a stickler for using JUST the correct range commands for very obvious reasons but if I made that statement and the shooter drew his gun he would be going home.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to lawyer this to death, I just believe the statement as a whole is the message.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Pat Miles

[Sarge]

We just went through all of this a few months back pat. If the words make ready are said, period a shooter can claim that is what he heard. Something about how some shooters can get in the zone so deep and all of that

[Pat Miles]

We just went through all of this a few months back pat. If the words make ready are said, period a shooter can claim that is what he heard. Something about how some shooters can get in the zone so deep and all of that

What the shooter can claim he heard and what I said (and as I said above, I would not use that statement) are two very different things. The fact that I was the RO would settle the argument.

Let's stretch this a bit farther. What if I did not respond to the shooter asking if he can make ready? Can the shooter just infer that no answer does not constitute a "no", so he draws his gun and loads up. He could easily argue that the same practice is used if he does not reply after "are you ready" and we beep him 1-4 seconds later.

My whole point here is that the whole statement is my answer to his question, not the few words he hears cause he's in the zone.

[Sarge]

Then that puts you firmly in the minority. Being an ro is not being a cop. You can't settle an argument just by saying "you are wrong and I am right".

And for the record, the argument that by saying nothing the RO infers he can make ready is just ludicrous

Edited July 29, 2014 by Sarge

[AWLAZS]

When I get into the start position all I am listening for is make ready. If the ro is standing behind me and says something like "It will take a second before you can make ready we need to..." I will make ready.

[EkuJustice]

A dq for that would go to the the RM to decide as you did say the words make ready which means the shooter may make ready. The shooter wouldn't be arguing that the event didn't happen it would be arguing making ready when told

To do so isn't against the rules. What about the shooters who English isn't a primary language and they know the range commands and that's about it.

[whitedog]

Here we go. DQ turns into make ready.

If an RO says make ready in any way and the shooter pulls the gun, it's not aDQ. Many, many foreign shooters only know the range commands. That's there only grasp of English. They hear those 2 words and they go hot.

On DQ. I try very hard to talk to the shooter a bit if someone can take the timer. Let them know why and that it happens to everyone.

[Sarge]

All very good points and great reasons not to run your mouth incessantly when on the timer!

[Pat Miles]

Then that puts you firmly in the minority. Being an ro is not being a cop. You can't settle an argument just by saying "you are wrong and I am right".

And for the record, the argument that by saying nothing the RO infers he can make ready is just ludicrous

I'm not trying to say that I would be a tyrant, I am saying that the complete statement is my reply, not just the two words that the shooter wants to act on. Again, let me stress, I am a stickler about using ONLY the correct range commands when I RO.

[Aircooled6racer]

Pat: I am with you. I don't want to hear about what the guy fed his dog this mourning or a bad joke. As for the DQ, you should talk to the shooter and explain what just happened and why. Most will understand once they get over the shock of being DQ'd. We had one here last weekend on the squad I was on. The guy handled it very well and so did the RO and RM. The guy stayed around for the rest of the match and we all told our stories of being DQ'd. In this age of texting and the internet it seems some have lost the art of communication. A few words goes a long way but saying them the correct way goes even further. Thanks, Eric

[Cy Soto]

In the future, if I have to DQ someone, I will hand the timer to another RO so I can go over it with them better.

That is a nice gesture on your part but not really necessary. Every participant is responsible for knowing the rules and, if they don't follow them, chances are that they will be DQ'ed.

It is true that some new (newer) shooters may feel ashamed due to being disqualified and, because of this, choose to not return; that is their prerogative. Sadly, because some clubs are hurting for participants, they will overlook safety issues just so they don't run the risk of losing a shooter. IMO, this is a very bad practice which can lead to other related problems.

In the case of the OP, there is nothing that you did wrong. The shooter disregarded a rule and he paid for the consequences of his own actions. If he chooses to return next month, I assure you that he will be more careful next time.

[Sarge]

In the future, if I have to DQ someone, I will hand the timer to another RO so I can go over it with them better.

That is a nice gesture on your part but not really necessary. Every participant is responsible for knowing the rules and, if they don't follow them, chances are that they will be DQ'ed.

It is true that some new (newer) shooters may feel ashamed due to being disqualified and, because of this, choose to not return; that is their prerogative. Sadly, because some clubs are hurting for participants, they will overlook safety issues just so they don't run the risk of losing a shooter. IMO, this is a very bad practice which can lead to other related problems.

In the case of the OP, there is nothing that you did wrong. The shooter disregarded a rule and he paid for the consequences of his own actions. If he chooses to return next month, I assure you that he will be more careful next time.

Lot of truth here. I would rather have 20 safe shooters for the next ten years than recruit one unsafe shooter just so I can say I helped "grow the sport". I have DQ'ed one that I know of that never returned. He basically turned around almost straight uprange with a loaded gun on a COF. I'm perfectly happy not to see him again in all honesty.

[High Lord Gomer]

I think this may have been the guy's first match.

I don't feel bad about DQing him, I just wish I had discussed it more with him.

Another part of my "standard" safety briefing is:

We have several safety rules are not flexible. If we let one slide then we have to let them all slide. If you break one of them you are disqualified from the match which means you are done shooting for the day. You are welcome to come back another day but any of these ends your shooting today....

[SteelDown]

To follow up with the "in this day of electronic communications" vein, you might want to reach out with an email thanking him for coming and participating in the match and express a genuine interest in his continuing in the sport. You might ask if he has any questions you could answer and even offer the help coach or connect him with a coach if he comes out again. Sometimes a little follow up goes a long way.

Also, on a club level you might start a mentor program for the new shooters. Our club does this with 4-5 people rotating as mentor and they go through the match with the new shooters making sure the new shooter understands the rules, introduces them to other club members, offers pointers on shooting the stage and generally being our "customer service representative" for that match. In return they shoot the match for free. Since starting this a year ago we have between 3-10 new shooters at most of our matches.