ericm Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I have heard rumors of ultralite rifle loads being used in the 3GN series of matches. Rumors of 30 gr bullets running @ 2200 fps type of loads. After watching 3GN on the TeeVee, I can see that these light loads might be beneficial for the courses of fire. Those rifle plates do seem to fall slowly at times ; ) Current 3GN rules specify cartridge minimum but are mum on any power factor, bullet weight, etc. "4.3 Rifle ammunition shall be .223 Remington (5.56 NATO) or larger. Pistol and rifle cartridges must fire a single projectile only. Subject to DQ (rule 2.9)" IF these rumors be true, is anyone willing to "step up" as the kids say, and tell us what bullet, powder, etc. they are using in the ammo; and what mod's are required to an AR-15 type rifle to run these light loads? ericm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinT Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I have some of those competitors local to me, and I know they were the only ones having a hard time knocking plates off a Texas star at 100 yards. But that's all I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman4561 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Curious to hear about this also... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I might know a few guys...I might have tried a few loads out. 16" barrel with carbine gas, Gas Hog comp, JP low mass carrier, empty carbine buffer, Wolff reduced power buffer spring, pulled 40 grain .22 Mag bullets with a stab crimp...look at AA1680 and charge weights in the low teens. Shot about 2.5" groups at 100 yards. Shot some 60 grain NBTs at 2500 fps loaded with TAC and was sub MOA at 200 yards out of the same upper. Not saying this is any of the Pros formula, but it is what I came up with knowing what they are running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman4561 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I might know a few guys...I might have tried a few loads out. 16" barrel with carbine gas, Gas Hog comp, JP low mass carrier, empty carbine buffer, Wolff reduced power buffer spring, pulled 40 grain .22 Mag bullets with a stab crimp...look at AA1680 and charge weights in the low teens. Shot about 2.5" groups at 100 yards. Shot some 60 grain NBTs at 2500 fps loaded with TAC and was sub MOA at 200 yards out of the same upper. Not saying this is any of the Pros formula, but it is what I came up with knowing what they are running. What kind of recoil difference are we talking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 50% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtielke Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Interesting, I haven't heard anyone mention this at the 3GN matches. Also didn't notice anyone's rifle report sounding different but I'll pay more attention at the next one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickB Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 If true, is this not gaming it a little too much? However, if within the 3GN rules, then so be it.... Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 It is certainly not all. James was Shooting 77s! The noise is not all that different actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrbet83 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 pew vs PEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MustangGreg66 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Interesting... so do you have to turn up the gas to get those light loads to run? Or maybe just turn it down a little on a carbine gas system. Pulled 22mag bullets is pretty funny. I'm guessing that's just what you had on hand, otherwise that doesn't make much sense. Most bullet manufacturers make a 40gr bullet for 223 and there are even some 35gr non-lead bullets like the Barnes Varmint Grenade and the Hornady NXT. I have a few of those I was going to try to hotrod for varmints here in CA. I never got around to it, but this would be a possible option.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I got 15,000 pulled .22Mag bullets for $16...same diameter, jacketed. Sure, I could use other bullets, probably would if I was actually going to shoot this type of set-up in competition, but it made for a much cheaper experiment. I did not use adjustable gas in my testing. Especially on a lower pressure, lower temperature system, adjustable gas is just asking for trouble IMHO. I tuned the system components in concert with the load to obtain the performance some of the pros have told me they are getting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MustangGreg66 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I got 15,000 pulled .22Mag bullets for $16...same diameter, jacketed. Sure, I could use other bullets, probably would if I was actually going to shoot this type of set-up in competition, but it made for a much cheaper experiment. I did not use adjustable gas in my testing. Especially on a lower pressure, lower temperature system, adjustable gas is just asking for trouble IMHO. I tuned the system components in concert with the load to obtain the performance some of the pros have told me they are getting. Good lord, anything cheaper than that would have to be free lol. I was hoping you weren't the one pulling the bullets Good info, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinp Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Ok I can't help but say it, it's not like the 223 has hardly any recoil to begin with, even with high pressure xm193. Please don't give 3 gun PF requirements. I don't want to have to go to a chrono stage for three gun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dauntedfuture Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 For what its worth, I did some math on my rifle with the recoil generated on a calculator. Keep in mind this is "standard ammo", and I cant remember the units of recoil calculated but it does not matter 77g@ 2700fps = 5.5, 55@fps 3100 = 4.5 and 40@3200fps = 3.5 so there is quite a difference there. I am confident that the lighter bullets work the comps better than the 77's. The difference between my 40g and 77g loads is significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustinT Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 It's not about recoil, it's about how much the dot moves and how quickly it settles. There's a big difference between my 55gr @ 3000 fps load and XM193, even. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmt Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 If you're worried about the hellish recoil of your .223/5.56 just slip your maxi-pad under your bra strap and carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 (edited) Interesting, I haven't heard anyone mention this at the 3GN matches. Also didn't notice anyone's rifle report sounding different but I'll pay more attention at the next one. I know I'm boring when I shoot, but I guess you didn't listen to my AR. Loading Nosler 50 gr SP with 23.4 gr AA2230 for 2612 fps. Very little recoil and runs well in all my ARs. Bill Edited July 25, 2014 by Flatland Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtielke Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Interesting, I haven't heard anyone mention this at the 3GN matches. Also didn't notice anyone's rifle report sounding different but I'll pay more attention at the next one. I know I'm boring when I shoot, but I guess you didn't listen to my AR. Loading Nosler 50 gr SP with 23.4 gr AA2230 for 2612 fps. Very little recoil and runs well in all my ARs. Bill Probably more that I don't get to go to local matches anymore and can't remember that far back. I liked it when I could go to the locals every weekend and see the same guys around town. I think I've shot more matches in Tulsa this year than at the Impact Zone just down the road. Hoping that next year things will settle down and I can make at least 1-2 local matches a month. By then I should be living 12 minutes from Impact and 20 from Pacleb. Planning on going to both the Dissident matches in August. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Take a look at the Rimfire pistol times vs. the centerfire pistol times at Steel Challenge. No question that cutting recoil helps the top shooters complete courses of fire faster. If your skillset is not developed well enough to reap the time benefit, then sure, don't bother. But it is pretty clear that at least a few Pros got some better finishes by shooting a load with significantly less recoil. Using every allowable means to get a better score IS playing the game to win, not just for fun, so I see no issue with it. However, having worked as a race official who tore down racecars that had set records, we were also asked by the rules committee after teardowns to provide an expert opinion if we found something "legal" which should be addressed in the next ruleset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Remember what one of the best mechanics/shop owners/car owner said in early days of NASCAR: "If you ain't cheatin, you ain't winnin" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 NASCAR...the sporterization of bootlegging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flatland Shooter Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Interesting, I haven't heard anyone mention this at the 3GN matches. Also didn't notice anyone's rifle report sounding different but I'll pay more attention at the next one. I know I'm boring when I shoot, but I guess you didn't listen to my AR. Loading Nosler 50 gr SP with 23.4 gr AA2230 for 2612 fps. Very little recoil and runs well in all my ARs. Bill Probably more that I don't get to go to local matches anymore and can't remember that far back. I liked it when I could go to the locals every weekend and see the same guys around town. I think I've shot more matches in Tulsa this year than at the Impact Zone just down the road. Hoping that next year things will settle down and I can make at least 1-2 local matches a month. By then I should be living 12 minutes from Impact and 20 from Pacleb. Planning on going to both the Dissident matches in August. I believe that at one time you planned on building a personal range at your new house. Is that still in the works? Several local matches within a half hour of the house and a practice range out behind the garage? Now that would be "living the dream". Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhunt91 Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 The ? I have trying this is would it be reliable to work in a system 2 different loadsIe: 55/77 for the longrange stages and 40gr hosers for closer stages. Im new to the math behind this but what does this do ballistically to the round at distance *rifle has adj gas Lmos parts and Taccom ul buffer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 If you build a rifle to be high performance and soft shooting with .22Mag power levels (110 PF), and then stuff 5.56 Nato (215 PF) rounds into it, there will be a good amount of unhappiness. You can however set up a rifle to run say a nice soft shooting 155 PF (55s at 2800) and a 200PF (69s at 2900) without too much worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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