180 Rule - Can the backstop reference change after start signal?

[TitoR]

Below is an image of a stage from a match last weekend. There was a discussion on whether the backstop reference for a violation of 180 remain fixed at the start, or whether it can change depending on the shooting area and the shooters movement along it.

The start position for the stage was standing at the XX marks looking downrange (top of image).

So, should the four targets on the bottom right corner be shot by stopping along the vertical portion of the shooting area to avoid breaking the 180, or can these targets be shot after the second turn assuming the 180 rule backstop reference shifted to the berm along the right side of the image?

Essentially, can the 180 rule backstop reference shift from the berm on the top edge of the image to the berm at the right edge of the image?

These targets were visible from both locations. So, after the second turn all shots to those targets would have broken the 180 degree rule if the backstop reference is fixed at the start on the berm at the top of the image.

Some clarifications to the image below. The backstop/berms are aligned along the left, top, right and partially back edge of the image, so the stage is almost completely surrounded by berms.

[motosapiens]

Here's the rule:

If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not

I don't see anything in there that suggests a stage can only have a single backstop, but you'd have to pay careful attention to where the squad and/or any spectators are.

[Pat Miles]

If in doubt, ask the RO. He's the person who is going to send you home if he see's a safety violation.

Pat

[eric4069]

If in doubt, ask the RO. He's the person who is going to send you home if he see's a safety violation.

Pat

IF I was the RO I would call that a DQ as it looks like the OP is talking about the shooter pointing his handgun uprange if I undertand the illulstration correctly.

Eric

[Parallax3D]

The 180 is ALWAYS in relation to the rear berm!!! Even if you are shooting toward the side berms, if your muzzle passes 180 in relation to the rear berm, it's a DQ.

I don't know how the stage was actually laid out in the bay when built, but the first target on the right looks like an obvious 180 trap to me. Poor stage design.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Parallax3D

[motosapiens]

The 180 is ALWAYS in relation to the rear berm!!! Even if you are shooting toward the side berms, if your muzzle passes 180 in relation to the rear berm, it's a DQ.

Can you show me the rule that supports your claim? The one I posted above does not appear to.

One of our local clubs has some pits that safely allow far more than 180 degrees, especially if you take into account the different positions (essentially multiple small bays connected by a central corridor).

However, I think in the above example, as described by the poster, it's hard to imagine being able to shoot the lower right targets legally from the end position. Unless I misunderstand, it appears you would be shooting them from behind. Being able to shoot the *same* targets from both sides doesn't seem like it could possibly be safe.

[racerba]

The 180 is ALWAYS in relation to the rear berm!!! Even if you are shooting toward the side berms, if your muzzle passes 180 in relation to the rear berm, it's a DQ.

Please show the rule.

There have been stages where 180 was not parallel to the back berm due to space or whatever. Usually, there will be a line showing the 180. We have a club with a bay with berms on all 4 sides. Stages set up in this bay tend to have a floating 180 relative to the target arrays. This is communicated to the shooters during the WSB so they know where the 180 is. Yes, there have been major matches allowing this setup in this bay at this range.

[TitoR]

The image is misleading. Those bottom right targets are in line vertically or farther to the right of the end of the shooting area. Most shooters chose to shoot them after they pass the second turn. The first bottom-right target, was shot by most from the first turn.

[Parallax3D]

Can you show me the rule that supports your claim? The one I posted above does not appear to.

One of our local clubs has some pits that safely allow far more than 180 degrees, especially if you take into account the different positions (essentially multiple small bays connected by a central corridor).

However, I think in the above example, as described by the poster, it's hard to imagine being able to shoot the lower right targets legally from the end position. Unless I misunderstand, it appears you would be shooting them from behind. Being able to shoot the *same* targets from both sides doesn't seem like it could possibly be safe.

Please show the rule.

There have been stages where 180 was not parallel to the back berm due to space or whatever. Usually, there will be a line showing the 180. We have a club with a bay with berms on all 4 sides. Stages set up in this bay tend to have a floating 180 relative to the target arrays. This is communicated to the shooters during the WSB so they know where the 180 is. Yes, there have been major matches allowing this setup in this bay at this range.

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6).

You can only have ONE "backstop", which defines what is uprange and downrange. That is generally the back of the shooting area. It is IMPOSSIBLE under the rules to have a course that allows more than a 180 degree field of fire.

[motosapiens]

Can you show me the rule that supports your claim? The one I posted above does not appear to.

One of our local clubs has some pits that safely allow far more than 180 degrees, especially if you take into account the different positions (essentially multiple small bays connected by a central corridor).

However, I think in the above example, as described by the poster, it's hard to imagine being able to shoot the lower right targets legally from the end position. Unless I misunderstand, it appears you would be shooting them from behind. Being able to shoot the *same* targets from both sides doesn't seem like it could possibly be safe.

Please show the rule.

There have been stages where 180 was not parallel to the back berm due to space or whatever. Usually, there will be a line showing the 180. We have a club with a bay with berms on all 4 sides. Stages set up in this bay tend to have a floating 180 relative to the target arrays. This is communicated to the shooters during the WSB so they know where the 180 is. Yes, there have been major matches allowing this setup in this bay at this range.

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6).

You can only have ONE "backstop", which defines what is uprange and downrange. That is generally the back of the shooting area. It is IMPOSSIBLE under the rules to have a course that allows more than a 180 degree field of fire.

Nowhere does it say you can only have one backstop. You made that up.

Edited July 17, 2014 by motosapiens

[Parallax3D]

The image is misleading. Those bottom right targets are in line vertically or farther to the right of the end of the shooting area. Most shooters chose to shoot them after they pass the second turn. The first bottom-right target, was shot by most from the first turn.

Like I said, it's hard to tell unless you see it as it was built in the bay. The first target on the right looks to be right at the 180, (in relation to the implied backstop being the top of the picture.) If it was slightly forward of the rear fault line, it would be ok. If you had to essentially turn to 180 to shoot it from the rearmost fault line, then it's a 180 trap.

[Parallax3D]

Nowhere does it say you can only have one backstop. You made that up.

It doesn't SAY a lot of things, but clearley you can only have one backstop that defines what is "Uprange" and what is "Downrange." If you didn't, then you wouldn't have a 180 degree rule!! Think about it. If you suddenly declared the side berm to be the backstop, then "90 degrees to the median intercept" would mean that one direction would be facing the rear berm, and the other would be facing OUT OF THE BAY! Clearly that is not safe.

BTW - Are you an RO, Mark? I am.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Parallax3D

[sfinney]

The 180 is to enforce safety. Not to dictate which targets are enageable from which shooting lane, etc. per se.

Despite if the rules actually allow more than one 180 to be set per stage, does that really sound like a good idea? Isn't breaking the 180 a big enough trap already on many stages, without having multiple 180s depending on where you are standing in the course?

I know its challenging to fit elaborate field courses in some bays, but I think we just could try a little harder on design, rather than trying to have shifting 180s in the same course of fire. You are setting people up to fail.

[HI5-O]

The current issue of Front Sight has an article on the 180.

[JAFO]

Even if you can safely have a "floating" backstop reference in a bay, you still only have ONE on the stage, and that one is used to define the 180. You can't declare the rear berm the backstop for the targets on the left of the start, and then declare the right side berm the backstop for the other targets after you pass the second turn. If the backstop in use allows for engaging the target to the left of the start position, there's no way it's legal to allow engaging the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th targets on the right to be engaged after the second turn.

Edited July 17, 2014 by JAFO

[alma]

No such thing as a "floating 180." it introduces and incredible amount of uncertainty and subjectivity as to who should be DQed or not DQed for unsafe gun handling. If a non traditionally shaped Bay then pick a 180, make some reference marks to assist the shooter and RO in knowing where it is, and stick to it.

Edited July 17, 2014 by alma

[JAFO]

By "floating," I was referring to racerba's post #7 above where he mentions a bay where they define the 180 based on the target array for the stage. It may change from match-to-match depending on how the stage is setup, but the reference is constant for the entire stage.

[2MoreChains]

I never get too nutted up over a stage until I see it laid out on the ground. Despite some of the cool ways you can design a stage on a 'puter it seems like the exact shooting angles are hard to be sure of until the stage is actually constructed.

Seems to me there could be two ways to fix the problem if encountered at a match.

1) If you're there during setup, one could orient the entire stage so that the fault line that you start on is perpendicular to the central axis of the bay. So essentially you would rotate the entire stage about 15-20 degrees to the left.

2) But if the stage designer's intent was to make you retreat alittle as you moved left to right from the start position, then you could position a barrel stack to the left of that 1st target on the rightside to obscure its view until the shooter moves all the way into that corner. It may require that the target be moved down range a foot or so, but that's the fine tuning that you can do when you see the angles in real life when the stage is laid out on the ground.

As to the current discussion about how many backstops or berms there are ... I understand this is Enos and its neccessary to chase something around the room multiple times, but what about when the bay isn't square and/or has a rounded or angled backstop? I've constructed stages in all shapes and sizes of bays, and in some cases angled the entire stage because I wanted to avoid fragging shooters in the adjancent bays. In all instances we've established the median intercept as the central axis of the stage and declared whatever was 90 deg to either side to be what defined the 180.

[2MoreChains]

Nowhere does it say you can only have one backstop. You made that up.

BTW - Are you an RO, Mark? I am.

He is. CRO as well.

[alma]

The "floating 180" is a term I have heard thrown around a particular club out here that has an odd shaped Bay where you could safely shoot beyond the 180 but that doesn't make it legal.

There best way to resolve that is to lay down a reference line for the declared 180. I have seen a length of rope across the back of the stage or depending on the stage you might be able to use a rear fault line.

[motosapiens]

Nowhere does it say you can only have one backstop. You made that up.

It doesn't SAY a lot of things, but clearley you can only have one backstop that defines what is "Uprange" and what is "Downrange." If you didn't, then you wouldn't have a 180 degree rule!! Think about it. If you suddenly declared the side berm to be the backstop, then "90 degrees to the median intercept" would mean that one direction would be facing the rear berm, and the other would be facing OUT OF THE BAY! Clearly that is not safe.

BTW - Are you an RO, Mark? I am.

Not that it matters, but yes I'm an RO (CRO, actually), and I've worked some nationals and Area matches, so I'm not a noob, but I also don't claim to be mr know-it-all (I do try to be mr 'consider-it-all'). It's possible that NROI might have a ruling I don't know about, so I'm only speaking based on reading the rule, and on some of the more creative stages (and bays) I've seen. If I'm wrong then I'll consider this a very educational discussion.

It's not at all clear to me that you can only have one backstop defining what is uprange and downrange, although I admit that's the normal situation. Many clubs do have bays that allow other scenarios tho, such as a central corridor with 2 or 3 smaller bays off to the side (all surrounded by 3-sided berms). I don't see anything in the rule that would prevent you from defining a different 180 line when in those individual offshoot bays than you would have in the central corridor. Obviously, it would have to be safe, and clearly delineated, and made clear to the shooters and RO's. I can't imagine any way you could do it in a single bay, even one with full berms on 3 sides.

Such a 'corridor' situation would certainly be safer than the situation at some matches where spectators and competitors are pretty much 'downrange' from side targets towards the front of the bay (I agitate to get those stages fixed when I see them).

Edited July 17, 2014 by motosapiens

[TitoR]

The image is misleading. Those bottom right targets are in line vertically or farther to the right of the end of the shooting area. Most shooters chose to shoot them after they pass the second turn. The first bottom-right target, was shot by most from the first turn.

Like I said, it's hard to tell unless you see it as it was built in the bay. The first target on the right looks to be right at the 180, (in relation to the implied backstop being the top of the picture.) If it was slightly forward of the rear fault line, it would be ok. If you had to essentially turn to 180 to shoot it from the rearmost fault line, then it's a 180 trap.

The first target was indeed slightly forward of the rear fault line.

Tito

[MarkCO]

Feb 2014 USPSA HG Rules:

2.1.2 Safe Angles of Fire – Courses of fire must always be constructed to ensure safe angles of fire. Consideration must be given to safe target and frame construction and the angle of any possible ricochets. Where appropriate the physical dimensions and suitability of backstops and side berms must be determined as part of the construction process.

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6).

The "180" is not defined in the USPSA rulebook, as such there is no such thing as a "180 Violation". It is as described above which seems pretty clear to me. The rules also clearly account for the lack of a backstop. If one were to shoot in a 360 degree berm, there would be no bisection unless such was defined by the match officials. Staff and course designers have to take the first step in safe course construction. On a square berm, the rules are specific and define the safe muzzle angles clearly. On an atypical berm or area, it is clear the that Rule authors acknowledge and account for that as well.

If these are rules a person feels they can twist and argue about, they should stop shooting this sport and take up something that does not require the use of firearms and common sense.

Forcing shooters to engage targets right on the 180, or even close to it, is poor course design that adds nothing to the sport nor the testing of the shooters skillset.

Edited July 17, 2014 by MarkCO

[Pat Miles]

If these are rules a person feels they can twist and argue about, they should stop shooting this sport and take up something that does not require the use of firearms and common sense.

+1!

Especially the common sense part!

Pat

Edited July 17, 2014 by Pat Miles

[alma]

Mark, this is where the often quoted rule book definitions of up range and down range fall short. When talking about default shooting positions those are used for pretty regularly although I don't necessarily agree with the interpretations.