Would different timer help alleviate cheating?

[Sandbagger123]

One thing I have noticed in the PH uspsa scandal is that he seems to like to use the CED timer. Those that have it and used it know the screen and number are small compared to the other timers out there.

It's also hard to flip over the shoulder to show the RO the time as it's in the front instead of the top.

Here in pnw I have yet to see CED timers used in match . For you folks in the mid and east coast, is there a particular reason why you use the small CED?

[Sarge]

I use them in my matches because the MD before me bought them. I think they are a pain for a few reasons:

Small screen and print like you mentioned

Hard to hold over shoulder like you mentioned

The beep is hard to hear for some of us with high frequency hearing loss

Too small to keep track of easily

Don't come equipped to clip on belt, bag, pouch whatever

Built in batteries require me to put them on chargers before every match

I personally own a pocket pro II with a nice big screen and gnarly Buzz for a beeper. I put new batteries in once a year and call it good.

[motosapiens]

I put new batteries in once a year and call it good.

you're not dry-firing enough. Mine eats batteries every 3-4 months.

[bigdawgbeav]

I bought the CED since I'm an hour from them. I bought it more for personal use but have occasionally had to use it at a match when the supplied timer took a crap and didn't feel like running to get batteries.

One of the reasons why the CED is used is they have a model that can score a shooter as well as time, provided the info is added in. Another reason is they are RF capable and can broadcast to a large timer board. Some clubs use these boards for easy scoring.

[vluc]

I've been using the 7k since they came out and have had no problems with them. For me, easy to hold (not over the shoulder but behind the back), easier ti use, easier to carry around. I prefer them to the much larger ones that are out there.

As for would a different timer change things - well, if you don't physically share the time with your scoring RO, it won't matter what timer was used. Besides, video shows he used to do that around 2010, but somehow lost the ability around 2011...

[Sarge]

I put new batteries in once a year and call it good.

you're not dry-firing enough.

No argument here!

[BSeevers]

Cheating will happen no matter what you do. I can give you many different ways that I have seen. The timer call is only one way. Punish and move on.

[glockified]

There is probably still a way to cheat, but from now on I'm going to ask to see the timer after my run at any big match.

[kevin c]

Like BSeevers said, changing the timer just mean that the particular method of cheating used in this case might be a bit more difficult, but others would not.

I used a CED timer personally (until I left it on the range and it apparently went looking for me and is still lost). I liked that it was small and light (the stuff jammed in my range bag is too bulky and weighs way too much - anything to pare that down). I like the soft volume setting when I dryfire at home. and it was easy to use for live fire training once on its belt clip.

Edited June 24, 2014 by kevin c

[BoyGlock]

We can use any timer and still cheat. As bseevers above said there are other ways to do it. The scoring RO can do it by scoring a miss a D, or 2 As (1 hole). The Stats can revise the data being inputted. In IPSC theres a reqt to post a verifier score before the final scores are posted. But you can only verify your own times and scores. If your competitors' scores were tampered w/ in favor of them it would be very difficult for you to know. But the competitor given the favor would know and in case of an investigation would be very difficult to come out clean. That is if it comes to that w/c is a long shot at the very least.

[kevin c]

There is probably still a way to cheat, but from now on I'm going to ask to see the timer after my run at any big match.

You can ask, and, if I were the RO, I would show you. But I always show the scorekeeper the timer readout, usually without even looking at it myself first, because I am watching you ULASC. I then read it off so others and you can hear, and the ARO can confirm what was written. Remember what we've seen in the videos was one person doing this himself, without the scorekeeper getting to see the readout. It strikes me that it would be very very rare that a team of CRO and ARO would both be cheating.

It also strikes me that it is a shame that one man's failings could destroy the trust in the fair treatment expected from all the rest of us, who are basically honest. I think that is one reason we are so outraged, that this is not the norm (and I'm talking about the fairness expected in officiating/scoring, not what some might do to grand or sandbag classifiers, to tweek their guns beyond their Division restrictions, or manipulate ammo for chrono - all that's on the individual shooter).

[kevin c]

We can use any timer and still cheat. As bseevers above said there are other ways to do it. The scoring RO can do it by scoring a miss a D, or 2 As (1 hole). The Stats can revise the data being inputted. In IPSC theres a reqt to post a verifier score before the final scores are posted. But you can only verify your own times and scores. If your competitors' scores were tampered w/ in favor of them it would be very difficult for you to know. But the competitor given the favor would know and in case of an investigation would be very difficult to come out clean. That is if it comes to that w/c is a long shot at the very least.

Yes, it has always been a good idea for the competitor to check his scores and times for accuracy, not because the match officials are dishonest, but because WE ARE HUMAN AND CAN MAKE HONEST MISTAKES. Thats why you look at the score sheet and sign it off. That's why there's a one hour challenge period after final scores are posted, to catch errors, not to catch cheating officials.

The math is now moot, what with electronic scoring. Time cheats (or, much more likely, misread or misrecorded times) on the range can be addressed with looking at the timer if the competitor needs to, or by doing what I routinely do and described above.

I have read here and elsewhere where some folks feel the organization must be rotten all the way through, based on this one person's actions and what some see as foot dragging and a lack of transparency on the part of HQ and others see as due process and caution given the nature and magnitude of what was done, which is, as far as I know, without precedent in the sport. They are threatening to quit USPSA and go elsewhere. That's a shame. Almost all of us love this sport and compete and officiate honestly, and that should outweigh one man's failure.

[BoyGlock]

We can use any timer and still cheat. As bseevers above said there are other ways to do it. The scoring RO can do it by scoring a miss a D, or 2 As (1 hole). The Stats can revise the data being inputted. In IPSC theres a reqt to post a verifier score before the final scores are posted. But you can only verify your own times and scores. If your competitors' scores were tampered w/ in favor of them it would be very difficult for you to know. But the competitor given the favor would know and in case of an investigation would be very difficult to come out clean. That is if it comes to that w/c is a long shot at the very least.

Yes, it has always been a good idea for the competitor to check his scores and times for accuracy, not because the match officials are dishonest, but because WE ARE HUMAN AND CAN MAKE HONEST MISTAKES. .

Ive only been in this sport for the past 10 yrs competing actively but I think its long enough for me to know what were honest mistakes and NOT. And I was CLEARLY talking about the NOT.

Eta: its my understanding that this thread is here not to talk about HONEST MISTAKES. So...

Edited June 24, 2014 by BoyGlock

[kevin c]

Sorry if I got off track, and sorry about the caps. I just hate to think that it will come to suspicion and mistrust between the officials and the shooters being the expected state of affairs.

I should have said this - I don't think a change in timer is needed since I think the type of cheating that might be prevented is very rare, and that it is more reasonable to think that an error calling the time is just that, not that the RO is trying to help or screw the shooter.

[glockified]

If you ask to see the timer display after you ULASC, is there any reason the RO would not show it to you? I'm a relatively new shooter compared to many of you on this forum, and I'm just trying to think through this problem before I shoot another big match.

Edited June 25, 2014 by glockified

[motosapiens]

If you ask to see the timer display after you ULASC, is there any reason the RO would not show it to you? I'm a relatively new shooter compared to many of you on this forum, and I'm just trying to think through this problem before I shoot another big match.

I can think of two reasons the RO would not show you the timer:

1. He's cheating (i think this is very very very very rare).

2. He's on a power trip and will make noise about not wanting to slow things down.

I expect there will soon be official guidance on this topic, but for now, I'm happy to show you the timer after ULASC. Heck, I'm happy to hand it to you so you can play with it while I'm scoring the targets, as long as you don't run off with it.

In last weekends sectional match, I had one shooter ask to see the timer (I told everyone they could ask to see it, and they could crowd around the scorekeeper when I turned it that way during ULSC).

However, if you're really worried about it, your best bet would be to get a shotmaxx timer and run it in spy mode, It sounds like it should get very close to the official time. Probably a few tenths shorter to account for your reaction time to the buzzer.

Edited June 25, 2014 by motosapiens