Holding a loaded mag in your hand.

[Therealkoop]

Is it legal to fire strong hand only with a loaded mag in your weak hand?

[alma]

It's legal in a USPSA field course. I will have to check on mandatory strong hand/ weak hand shooting as to whether it would be allowed.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

It's legal in a USPSA field course. I will have to check on mandatory strong hand/ weak hand shooting as to whether it would be allowed.

Really? Please site the rule as I disagree and would like to see what I missed.

See

5.2.4

During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated

otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or

speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to

the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them, providing that the location of the

apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item

12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

and

8.2.3

A course of fire must never require or allow a competitor to touch or

hold a handgun, loading device or ammunition after the “Standby”

command and before the “Start Signal” (except for unavoidable touching with the lower arms)

Edited June 7, 2014 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[sperman]

Is it legal to fire strong hand only with a loaded mag in your weak hand?

Yes.

[alma]

It's legal in a USPSA field course. I will have to check on mandatory strong hand/ weak hand shooting as to whether it would be allowed.

Really? Please site the rule as I disagree and would like to see what I missed.

See

5.2.4

During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated

otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or

speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to

the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless

specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may

also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel

pocket(s) and retrieve and use them, providing that the location of the

apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item

12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

and

8.2.3

A course of fire must never require or allow a competitor to touch or

hold a handgun, loading device or ammunition after the “Standby”

command and before the “Start Signal” (except for unavoidable touching with the lower arms)

I think your interpretation is off on this. It also doesn't say that you can carry magazines in your gun but I am pretty sure that is allowed.

I agree that you cannot start a stage touching a magazine.

[alma]

You forgot the second part of 5.2.4. basically you have already retrieved the magazine from your pouch so it's game on:

"Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point will be allowed providing they are not removed fromthe apparel pocket(s) between the “standby” command and the command “ if clear, hammer down and holster”. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty). When stipulations in the WSB require placement of magazines or speed loaders on a table or similar location and not in the retention devices prior to the start signal, retrieving them and using them from the hand is allowed. Further, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices carried in the hand after the start signal are not subject to the equipment position restrictions of Appendix D, Item 12, as long as they remain in the hand. "

Edited June 7, 2014 by alma

[alma]

After review of the rule book it looks like it would even be legal (after the start signal) to hold a magazine in your off hand during a strong hand or weak hand only stage even though you would not benefit from it since you are never required to reload after going strong or weak hand only.

10.2.8 If a course of fire stipulates shooting strong or weak hand only, a competitor will not be penalized for using the other hand (i.e. the other arm from the shoulder to the hand) to disengage an external safety, to reload or to correct a malfunction. However, the competitor will be issued one procedural penalty per shot fired while:

10.2.8.1 Touching the handgun with the other hand while firing shots;

10.2.8.2 Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting arm while firing shots;

10.2.8.3 Using the other hand on a barricade or another prop to increase

stability while firing shots.

[Therealkoop]

Thanks guys I appreciate it. Ive shot a stage where you were dictated to shoot strong hand at the start. Thinking it over it seems faster to draw a mag and the pistol at the same time, and then retain the mag at your chest to reload with.

[justaute]

Glad someone properly cited and not "sited" the rules. haha

After review of the rule book it looks like it would even be legal (after the start signal) to hold a magazine in your off hand during a strong hand or weak hand only stage even though you would not benefit from it since you are never required to reload after going strong or weak hand only.

10.2.8 If a course of fire stipulates shooting strong or weak hand only, a competitor will not be penalized for using the other hand (i.e. the other arm from the shoulder to the hand) to disengage an external safety, to reload or to correct a malfunction. However, the competitor will be issued one procedural penalty per shot fired while:

10.2.8.1 Touching the handgun with the other hand while firing shots;

10.2.8.2 Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting arm while firing shots;

10.2.8.3 Using the other hand on a barricade or another prop to increase

stability while firing shots.

[Sarge]

Thanks guys I appreciate it. Ive shot a stage where you were dictated to shoot strong hand at the start.

Not legal:

1.1.5.4 Medium or Long courses of fire may stipulate the use of

either strong or weak hand, provided that only one hand, either

strong or weak, is specified for no more than the last 6 shots

required.

[alma]

Thanks guys I appreciate it. Ive shot a stage where you were dictated to shoot strong hand at the start.

Not legal:

1.1.5.4 Medium or Long courses of fire may stipulate the use of

either strong or weak hand, provided that only one hand, either

strong or weak, is specified for no more than the last 6 shots

required.

Right, the only way to coerce this legally would be to start with something you had to carry first the first part of the stage.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

You forgot the second part of 5.2.4. basically you have already retrieved the magazine from your pouch so it's game on:

"Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point will be allowed providing they are not removed fromthe apparel pocket(s) between the “standby” command and the command “ if clear, hammer down and holster”. (e.g. – a magazine may be retrieved from a front pocket to facilitate loading before the start signal or while unloading at the end of a COF without penalty). When stipulations in the WSB require placement of magazines or speed loaders on a table or similar location and not in the retention devices prior to the start signal, retrieving them and using them from the hand is allowed. Further, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices carried in the hand after the start signal are not subject to the equipment position restrictions of Appendix D, Item 12, as long as they remain in the hand. "

Thank you, but that section refers to "When stipulations in the WSB require placement of magazines or speed loaders on a table or similar location and not in the retention devices prior to the start signal,"

The other sections you cited have nothing to do with magazines or speed loader devices it relates to props. As for the mag in the gun, it is covered under ready condition 8.1

Since reading the second post from the OP, if the course has started and the shooter draws a mag, It is not against the rules I cited. BUT: if the shooter tries to start with a mag in his/her hand, my post stands.

Thanks again

Edited June 8, 2014 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Glad someone properly cited and not "sited" the rules. haha

Ha ha, sorry for making a mistake

Edited June 8, 2014 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[JAFO]

Thanks guys I appreciate it. Ive shot a stage where you were dictated to shoot strong hand at the start.

Not legal:

1.1.5.4 Medium or Long courses of fire may stipulate the use of

either strong or weak hand, provided that only one hand, either

strong or weak, is specified for no more than the last 6 shots

required.

What about a Standards course? Although I guess it would be a bit unusual, as Standards have to use single hand from that point forward in the string, and I've never seen one where you had to reload during a one-handed string.

Edited June 9, 2014 by JAFO

[Skydiver]

CM 06-06 Golden Bullet Standards:

String 1 On signal, engage targets with one round each, perform a mandatory reload and re-engage each target with one round each strong hand only.

String 2 On signal, engage each target with one round each, perform a mandatory reload and re-engage each target with one round each weak hand only.

CM 09-05 Quad Standards and CM 09-06 Quad Standards 2:

All strings are seven seconds.

String 1: 120 ft. Engage T1-T4 with only one round, make a mandatory reload and engage T1-T4 with only one round freestyle.

String 2: 75 ft. Engage T1-T4 with only one round, make a mandatory reload and engage T1-T4 with only one round strong hand only.

String 3: 45 ft. Engage T1-T4 with only one round, make a mandatory reload and engage T1-T4 with only one round weak hand only.

[Skydiver]

A while back, one of our stage designers also designed a stage where the start position was standing, but you had to go prone or kneel down to engage the targets through a very low port. As I recall there was a mandatory reload. It made sense to draw and hold on to the spare mag before going prone.

[open17]

I suppose you could design a stage that required both strong hand and weak hand

in the same stage---and depending on round count and division it could require

a reload. As it would be through the use of props, any restrictions on the "other"

hand would not apply.

1.1.5.5 A course of fire which, through the use of props, requires a competitor to shoot both

strong-hand-only and weak-hand-only must not require that the shooter transition directly from

one to the other. The course of fire must provide movement and unencumbered freestyle target

engagement between the two.

[sperman]

I suppose you could design a stage that required both strong hand and weak hand

in the same stage---and depending on round count and division it could require

a reload. As it would be through the use of props, any restrictions on the "other"

hand would not apply.

Here is a good example. From the 2010 Monster Match.

[ChuckS]

Here is another from 2011 Area 2. You had to hang from the :"towel bars" to see the outside targets (3 each side, 2 in the middle port.

[alma]

I suppose you could design a stage that required both strong hand and weak hand

in the same stage---and depending on round count and division it could require

a reload. As it would be through the use of props, any restrictions on the "other"

hand would not apply.

Here is a good example. From the 2010 Monster Match.

I was pretty surprised to see the ninja outfit and it took me a second to figure out that it was a special match and he was not an "operator" looking to conceal his identity. Under the old 5.3.1 you could make an argument for that not being proper attire for a USPSA match but I now see that rule has been updated.

Old

5.3.1 The use of camouflage or other similar types of military or police garments is discouraged. The exception is

competitors who are law enforcement or military personnel. The Match Director will be the final authority in respect

of what garments competitors are allowed to wear.

New

5.3.1 The uses of offensive or objectionable garments are not allowed. The Match Director will have final authority in respect of what garments competitors are allowed to wear.

Edited June 11, 2014 by alma

[basman]

I don't believe that the 2010 Monster match was a sanctioned USPSA event as it is now.

[sperman]

It was a sanctioned match. it was Halloween. I think that was Manny. Frank was dressed up like Jack Sparrow.

http://themonstermatch.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Screen-shot-2011-08-17-at-10.14.49-PM.png

[JAFO]

CM 06-06 Golden Bullet Standards:

String 1 On signal, engage targets with one round each, perform a mandatory reload and re-engage each target with one round each strong hand only.

String 2 On signal, engage each target with one round each, perform a mandatory reload and re-engage each target with one round each weak hand only.

CM 09-05 Quad Standards and CM 09-06 Quad Standards 2:

All strings are seven seconds.

String 1: 120 ft. Engage T1-T4 with only one round, make a mandatory reload and engage T1-T4 with only one round freestyle.

String 2: 75 ft. Engage T1-T4 with only one round, make a mandatory reload and engage T1-T4 with only one round strong hand only.

String 3: 45 ft. Engage T1-T4 with only one round, make a mandatory reload and engage T1-T4 with only one round weak hand only.

Both of those are freestyle before the reload. The OP implied the stage in question started one-handed and included a reload.

Edited June 11, 2014 by JAFO

[Skydiver]

Can you point me at the clarification for those classifiers so I can print it out and stick it with my classifiers book?

The other classifiers which had freestyle, reload, then strong/weak hand were phrased as something like "From Box A only, engage T1-T4 with only one round each freestyle, perform a mandatory reload, then reengage T1-T4 with only one round each strong hand only." (from CM 03-07 Riverdale Standards)

[szhttm]

Recent example in the video below (see Rob Leatham's Stage 2 video). He is holding the mag in his hand that he reached back to grab it off the table. You can also see the mag in his hand clearly in the photos of the same match:
* Videos: http://www.liveshots.net/video/2014ssnats/#prettyPhoto
* Photos: http://www.liveshots.net/digitalimages/2014ssnats/

Good Luck And Be Safe!!!