Limited 10

[BerettaRacer]

The one issue I see over and over here is the SS vs the wide body, but I haven't really seen much mention of all the other guns that can now shoot L10 but aren't really single stacks. If you make it a SS only div what happens to all the Glock, Beretta, Sig etc. 40 S&W guns that are neither SS or wide body? Some of these are single action so they are not legal in Production, but do not have the mag capacity to be competitive with double stacks, would these now be outlawed?

[JFD]

MerlinD

I don't think the fact that a person shoots in another division besides L-10 makes their opinion invalid, but do you really want a division completely changed because some non-dedicated L-10 shooters(as well as non-L-10 shooters) want to experiment, at no risk to their own divisions, or do you want input from the folks who support the division now? Those are the folks you'll need to replace once L-10 is changed.

Do you think it's L-10 shooters who want to turn L-10 into a "fun division"? Hell no, we're as competitive as anyone else.

We've got folks saying that the doublestack L-10 could simply shoot Limited with the equipment they now use for L-10. So if I had a Para P-16 I would be competitive in Limited? Without pricey mag extensions I don't think so. So now we have basically everyone currently shooting L-10 having to shell out money for new equipment, or loosing money on the equipment they already have. Maybe it's a lot of money or a little, but it's still money out of my pocket that I have to spend because non-dedicated L-10 shooters want to play with my chosen division.

If any of the ideas had merit, it might be worth it to the organization. Anyone actually think we're going to attract new members with a CDP Jr? How about leaving L-10 the heck alone and create a new CDP Jr. division. The fact that there's still a revolver division shows USPSA is willing to support a division that hardly anyone shoots. Very quickly it would be seen that there are not hordes of SS shooters out there just waiting for IDPA equipment rules to come shoot with us. You see, those folks shoot IDPA and don't want to shoot USPSA. After everyone sees that the new division is a total failure, based on premises that are completely wrong, it could be shut down without alienating the folks who currently shoot L-10.

Again, I just go crazy when screwing with L-10 is mentioned, especially in a serious way by someone who can effect change, so I may not be making perfect sense. In that case, just check the poll results to see how many think change is a good idea.

[JFD]

I would have liked to have seen the poll address the proposed equipment changes. "SS Only" is one thing, but Production equipment rules aren't mentioned on the poll.

[warpspeed]

Make a new division and see how it is supported. This happens all the time where a company puts out a new product and if the market place doesn't support it, it goes away ( like New Coke ) or if it does great, they keep it around ( Like Diet Coke ).

[Merlin Orr]

MerlinD

I don't think the fact that a person shoots in another division besides L-10 makes their opinion invalid, but do you really want a division completely changed because some non-dedicated L-10 shooters(as well as non-L-10 shooters) want to experiment, at no risk to their own divisions, or do you want input from the folks who support the division now? Those are the folks you'll need to replace once L-10 is changed.

Do you think it's L-10 shooters who want to turn L-10 into a "fun division"? Hell no, we're as competitive as anyone else.

We've got folks saying that the doublestack L-10 could simply shoot Limited with the equipment they now use for L-10. So if I had a Para P-16 I would be competitive in Limited? Without pricey mag extensions I don't think so. So now we have basically everyone currently shooting L-10 having to shell out money for new equipment, or loosing money on the equipment they already have. Maybe it's a lot of money or a little, but it's still money out of my pocket that I have to spend because non-dedicated L-10 shooters want to play with my chosen division.

If any of the ideas had merit, it might be worth it to the organization. Anyone actually think we're going to attract new members with a CDP Jr? How about leaving L-10 the heck alone and create a new CDP Jr. division. The fact that there's still a revolver division shows USPSA is willing to support a division that hardly anyone shoots. Very quickly it would be seen that there are not hordes of SS shooters out there just waiting for IDPA equipment rules to come shoot with us. You see, those folks shoot IDPA and don't want to shoot USPSA. After everyone sees that the new division is a total failure, based on premises that are completely wrong, it could be shut down without alienating the folks who currently shoot L-10.

Again, I just go crazy when screwing with L-10 is mentioned, especially in a serious way by someone who can effect change, so I may not be making perfect sense. In that case, just check the poll results to see how many think change is a good idea.

JFD

I agree on most of what you say. Whatever works for the greatest number of members - with out trampling on anyone.

I can see that L 10 is dear to your heart. Thats kool with me.

PM sent

[Nik Habicht]

I dont see how anyone would be hurt or out cash at all by making L-10 turn to SS only. If you already have a fat gun, shoot limited.

KK,

Some people --- those shooting something other than a .40 S_I or Para would be hurt by being asked to move to Limited. The 12 shot Beretta .40s and 13 shot G-21s for instance can't play in Limited easily. The Glock can get a +5 basepad from Grams --- if you live in a state where that's legal, but the Beretta is stuck with it's low mag capacity. What are S_I and Para Limited widebodies running with? Somewhere around 20, right? Production you say --- they can go play in production? True enough --- but some folks would actually like to shoot a division where they can score major, or one that allows them to shoot their H&K cocked and locked.

I think the divisions are fine the way they are. They allow for a lot of variety in gun choice --- even production, the most restricted division, allows virtually all DA autos. I'm not sure we NEED a singlestack only division.

Before settling on shooting mostly production, I shot Limited regularly, with either a Glock 34, a Glock 21, or a SS 1911. When I occasionally play in L-10 it's with either the G-34 or the 1911. If anyone wants to shoot a single-stack for fun --- go to it. You've got three divisions where it can play --- so go beat some open shooters.....

[MoNsTeR]

Kimberkid you need to go back and read your own post.

However, if anyone wants to turn L-10 into SS only thats fine with me, cause it aint hurting anyone really.

What you meant to say is it's ok with you cause it won't hurt you. It very much will hurt lots of other shooters.

[Ron Ankeny]

FWIW, the vast majority of L10 shooters in my neck of the woods shoot a single stack, including me. Dirtypool's remarks echo the sentiments of the vast majority of L10 shooters with whom I have visited statewide. I honestly believe changing L10 to single stack would be good for the sport, and new shooters in particular would embrace the change with open arms.

The perception many folks have of a fat gun shooting in L10 is the shooter is simply dodging the competition of Limited and they use the fat gun to gain an advantage in reloading over the skinny gun shooters. I am not saying the perception is right or wrong, but it cetainly is negative.

Divisions are used to separate shooters by equipment. Does the BOD really feel a huge magwell on a fat gun accompanied by tapered magazines is for all pratical purposes equal to a skinny gun? Just curious.

[Shipster]

LEAVE IT AS IT IS!

If somebody wants to shoot with 8 rd mags and the holster and mag holders on or behind the center line of the hip, there is nothing stopping them from doing it. In the next few years who knows what will happen, there maybe more States who will push a assult weapons ban, then we will have to change things again.

Leave well enough alone.

[Gary Stevens]

Thanks Flex,

I have enough information to work from. You can lock this whenever you wish.

Gary

[pizzaman383]

Some people --- those shooting something other than a .40 S_I or Para would be hurt by being asked to move to Limited. 

I'm a newbie who fits into the fringes. I shot a few USPSA matches in 1985-86 and took the last ten years off shooting. My hand doesn't fit any of the 1911 designs (SS or wide body), I like major caliber (.40 or .45), and I like single actions. So, I'm on the fringes in this debate.

I just purchased a gun and intend to compete in the L10 division. I hope I didn't waste my money. I'll never liked the 1911 platform, no disrespect intended. Larger calibers aren't as competitive as 9mm in production; I don't want to be forced to reload with it's extra equipment investment and time. I don't want to have to use a double action pistol; I like the consistency and the safeties on single action pistols.

I vote to keep L10 as is.

[shred]

Maybe we should be less concerned about outcomes and instead pay attention to the fun part (hint: it's the shooting).

[Sam]

Well said, Shred!

[MikeFoley]

I am now looking at this in a new light based on some of the posts and some discussions locally. There are several widebody guns created as 10 round guns that don't seem to fit in competitively anywhere else but L10. As it stands, there are a lot of overlaps and few guns that can't shoot competitively in one of our 5 divisions.

When I first spoke, I was only thinking of myself. If L10 were SS only, I would be more interested in it and shooting my SS, but I seldom shoot anything but Limited, so I should just shut-up. If I want to shoot my SS locally, it will be in L10 because that is where it fits best. I still see no reason to shoot my STI .40 in L10.

The two camps with the majority of this vote are both good options, but I still wonder which one is best for new shooters and the sport long-term. We often defend our personal position on this issue instead of considering what the change would do for our sport. I still don't know the answer.

[Flexmoney]

I re-opened the "poll" so others may still enter their vote.