New Rule Book

[Bones]

Thomas/shred.

Ummm, actually I've got one on right now and a few more at home.

Loose round K & L-framed revolvers were issued by most PDs in this country not so long ago. I think that makes them "stock" and "service". Somehow I doubt the 625 would meet that criterium.

In any event, $250-300 should get you what you need in just about any decent gun shop. I doubt a new 4" 627, when and if it arrives, will be had for that money.

The new rules do not exclude the use of clip-guns. All you need is a little more powder in your cases.

Craig

[kdmoore]

PM sent, thanks Ted.

Anyone know how this will affect the classifier? Reloads with retention for an 8 shot? heh

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Goodbye all you sandbaggin' moon-clippers. SSR shooters wish you well in ESR - Enhanced Service Revolver. Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus and word is he carries a Model 19!

That sounds like a challenge my friend I will be shooting SSR in Springfield but will have to figure out what by then. Either my 2.5" 66 from an IWB holster or I will have to buy a 4" and get it ready.

Since this is the first time we are shooting the same class, I can not let this rule change screw it up.

Thanks for the E mail,

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Does anybody actually carry a 6-shot these days??

Yeah still some of us Dino's out here. It is too bad I can't compete with my 325PD now. I consider it a stock service revolver but I guess IDPA doesn't.

Oh well, time to dust off the SL Variant loaders

[Bones]

RGS my Friend,

I've got a 4" Model 19, 586 or 66 (your choice), with holster, speedloaders and ammo at your disposal.

Seriously, if you need one let me know. Mi pistola - su pistola.

Craig

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

RGS my Friend,

I've got a 4" Model 19, 586 or 66 (your choice), with holster, speedloaders and ammo at your disposal.

Seriously, if you need one let me know. Mi pistola - su pistola.

Craig

Call me. e mail sent.

[redmist10]

Doom on me!  

The book looks pretty comprehensive and is a big improvement over the last two but I am still scratching my head at the split SSR/ESR division.

Might as well allow red-dots Just kidding . It is not the greatest but it isn't the end of the world either....I'm still hestitant to believe that it will draw more speedloader shooters. I hope it does, but I just don't believe it.

Guess I'll have to buy a backup 686 now

Am I reading it right that you have to reload from behind the holster with two speedloaders or moonclips and only one in front? Bogus...

[Carmoney]

Well, Craig has courageously acknowledged that he was one of the shooters who petitioned IDPA to change the revolver rules.

Would anyone else like to 'fess up?

Ted, you seem awfully triumphant about this, too. Were you a campaigner on this also?

Who else do I need to thank for these changes? (First and last names, please...)

Mike Carmoney

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I may have to buy Auto Rim Brass and speed loaders. That may be the new hot SSR set up

[Ted Murphy]

Ted, you seem awfully triumphant about this, too.  Were you a campaigner on this also? 

Campaigner? I did propose a second division but didn't beat doors for it. After this years nats and there were only 3 speedloader guns, it was painfully obvious to most people that the moongun (and 625 in particular) was a must have gun and IDPA doesn't like advantages in equipment, perceived or real. Some of us chatted amongst ourselves and wondered what would come of this, and frankly I"m pleased that they didn't take the shorter route and just make moonclips go bye bye.

Triumphant? Not really, except that I'm pretty happy that at least in ESR IDPA did away with the bunny fart .45 loads. BF loads always stuck in my craw. Still will happen in SSR though, though probably not as much as most folks will likely use K/L/GP100 frames I suspect.

I am also pleased that 7 and 8 shot guns are legal in IDPA now, though I thought they would be better represented in SSP than a revolver class. I wouldn't have done it that way.

If you read over the letter from HQ it could be construed that they seriously considered an outright ban of moonclips before settling on ESR. I am pleased there they took the tact they did. When rumors of moonclips being banned came on (iirc) the 1911 forum I did dash off an email considering a second class as a less radical approach, but for me, moonguns are a challenge and not an obstacle. If I didn't think that way, I'd be shooting the 625 that's in my safe.

I do belive that this is for the best in the sport as I really think newbies will look at SSR with fresh eyes knowing they can get a decent used K/L frame or Ruger and be race ready for well under five hundred bucks, and probably well under three hundred bucks. Since IDPA's supposed to be shooting skill and not equipment, I do applaud this shift in divisions, and this part makes me happy. YMMV there.

Seems ESR is more of a class where all the oddball carry guns can be shot than a true competitive class. The 627 may well end up as the king of ESR, but I'm not so sure. It's one thing to shoot puffball loads in ICORE, and another to shoot a super or .357 mag at major. Having a medium and large bore N frame, I'd probabably opt for the big bore myself though. I bet that is the "tastes great/less filling" argument of the next few years. Gotta admit though, there is a bit of irony there.

Ted

[Byron Simpson]

Well, looks like my 9mm moonclip Ruger Speed Six now has nowhere to play, unless I can figure out how to meet 165pf with a 2 3/4" barrel , or else buy 9mm rimmed brass and try to find a speedloader that works.

[Ted Murphy]

I may have to buy Auto Rim Brass and speed loaders.  That may be the new hot SSR set up

Might be. I've been thinking just that this afternoon. Think you can only get HKS loaders for it though.

[redmist10]

Well, looks like my 9mm moonclip Ruger Speed Six now has nowhere to play, unless I can figure out how to meet 165pf with a 23/4" barrel , or else buy 9mm rimmed brass and try to find a speedloader that works.

I guess this also means I can drop my appeal to Smith and Wesson to introduce a 9mm moonclip gun (a superior alternative to any .38spl speedloader gun for CCW). Cheap ammo, compact so you could use a smaller frame for people with small hands...naturally, this is why they will make it in the next couple of years.

165pf will eliminate many of the 625 shooters. Boy, I never thought I would be saying this....I'm sure glad I started shooting major in USPSA revolver .

[BadShot]

Did anyone else notice that item 5-C for ESR states that the maximum weight is 42 ounces? According to S&W's website my 4inch 625 weighs 43 ounces, a 610 weighs 45 ounces, and a 627 weighs 44 ounces.

Skip

[Carmoney]

Ted, I'm really trying my best not to have unkind feelings about this, and I sure appreciate your candor in admitting that you are one of the shooters who proposed the second division, but look at the negative impact on the typical IDPA revo shooter:

Before today, the typical SSR shooter shot a 4" 625, 610, or 646. He pulled moonclips from those shoot-the-moon carriers, or else the dual Blade-Tech carriers. Now, if he wants to keep using the same equipment (with more powder in his cases to make the 165 p.f., which in and of itself is fine with me), he has to switch over to ESR, and get some different belt carriers. BUT: Now, there will be either a real need, or at least a perceived need, to shoot a 8-shot revo in order to stay competitive in that class. There are always going to be stages in IDPA matches (which as we all know tend to have a bias toward being "8-round neutral," where the extra couple rounds will save a reload.

Now if you're thinking, nah, all that kick and muzzle blast from hot magnums needed to make 165 p.f. will negate the advantage of the extra two rounds (I suspect this is what they were figuring in Berryville), think again. Betcha Jerry is already loading up some of his signature 200-gr. cast bullets in .38 cases, with just enough Blue Dot (or whatever he's using these days) to make the 165 p.f. out of a 4" gun. With the right ammo, that gun will shoot just about as soft as a 625, and reload almost as fast, and it will have 8 rounds.

Now, at the local level, 625s and 610s are still fine, right??--OOPS, wait a second, they're too heavy to make the new 42-oz. weight limit!! According to the S&W catalog, the production 4" 625 weighs (wouldn't you just know it...) 43 oz., and the 610 weighs 50 oz. So those guns are just out the window for IDPA--simple as that.

Is there even a current regular-production moonclip revolver that satisfies the new ESR rules? The 625 Mountain Gun was a special run, and they're pretty hard to find. They don't make a 627 in a 4" barrel--yet.

Ted--buddy--this is a real bad deal for almost everybody who shoots revo in IDPA. Maybe you and Craig and that one other speedloader guy at Nationals are pleased, but it's going to create an awful lot of useless hardware for the other 98% of us.

Mike

[redmist10]

When I asked a former BOD member about the challenges of having speedloaders and moonclips in the same class he offered this nugget: "we should have never let moonclip guns in Stock Service Revolver, when we did, it screwed it all up." It appears that they knew it was not exactly a level playing field but I would have to say that there are many speedloader shooters that are just as fast with them as they are with moonclips (but they have been silent on the issue so far).

It was possible to compete against 625's with a speedloader gun it just wasn't common practice. I think it is more of a mess than before. The pendulum seems to have swung too far beyond correction.

[txaggie]

Interesting what people here have latched onto in the rule book. I think the part that makes me the most upset are the new holster and mag carrier rules. All of my Comp-Tac equipment is now illegal, I have quite a few kydex paper weights now!! grrrrrrr

BTW, before you ask, the 12 month stability rule applies to guns only, not equipment.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Now, at the local level, 625s and 610s are still fine, right??--OOPS, wait a second, they're too heavy to make the new 42-oz. weight limit!!  According to the S&W catalog, the production 4" 625 weighs (wouldn't you just know it...) 43 oz., and the 610 weighs 50 oz.  So those guns are just out the window for IDPA--simple as that.

SNIP

Mike

I have shot revolver in IDPA as my main sport. Now I have 2 revolvers no longer legal in the sport. This is another case of the srew the revolver attitude in all but ICORE. It is really a shame.

I agree there was a need to make some changes, and some of them appear to be well thought out. The SSR/ESR ammo carrier locations is the most rediculous thing I have seen.

I have carried revolvers since my first LE appointment in 1971. I have NEVER carried loaders or spare ammo behind the gun. And read the description of the speed loader holder. It must make sense to someone

The S&W Winter Championship will be a night mare for the SOs. I wish them luck.

First major match on a new rule book

Regards,

[Ted Murphy]

I bet the weight limit gets changed before the book appears in print form. Either a typo or oversight on their part. I bet there will be a final revision before printing.

Would you prefer moonguns be banned outright? Again, citing the HQ letter, those were the options at hand. I think ESR is definitely the lesser of two evils. They were not going to let the division stay as is. It was broken- the division had evolved to the point where the 625 was the must get gun and IDPA wasn't going to let the status quo remain.

Funny part is I just bought a 625, but since I was planning on using it for USPSA with major loads anyway, I really don't give a RA about the 165 pf and I'm not really all that threatened by the 8 shooters.

The cream rises to the top and most the big dawgs will still be out on top. The difference is I believe in the end SSR will be more new shooter friendly.

An above poster said that only ICORE is revolver friendly. I submit that IDPA's is very revolver friendly, it just values new shooters over gamer types.

Ted

[Byron Simpson]

Is there even a current regular-production moonclip revolver that satisfies the new ESR rules?  The 625 Mountain Gun was a special run, and they're pretty hard to find.  They don't make a 627 in a 4" barrel--yet.   

and the Taurus 8-shot revos are 44oz unloaded, which puts them out of the picture -- so are the only ESR guns the old 625 Mountain guns, the 3" 625, the 646 and the 7-shot 686 and 7-shot Taurus that you will have to send somewhere for a moonclip conversion?

[revchuck]

redmist wrote:

Am I reading it right that you have to reload from behind the holster with two speedloaders or moonclips and only one in front? Bogus...

Silly me...I've been carrying and shooting IDPA that way for about six years now, except with a speed strip in front.

There's a perceptual disconnect here somewhere. I just realized that a lot of my carry gear has become unusable in IDPA. I'm still trying to figure out whether I have any speedloader carriers that are IDPA legal.

While I don't mind having the MC guns in their own class, the ESR concept wasn't really needed. I doubt whether there's any real benefit to having an eight shot .357 over a six shot .45 ACP, given the difficulty of fitting the eight long, skinny bullets into the cylinder.

[marmot452]

Regarding ESR: I was happy with the idea of a moonclip and a speedloader division since I love to shoot both types of revolver. What I question was the addition of the 7 and 8 shot cylinders. How does that make the playing field more level? Somebody help me wrap my mind around that one.

[redmist10]

Would you prefer they be banned outright?

I submit that IDPA's SSR is very revolver friendly, it just values new shooters over gamer types.

Ted

I'm thinking that they should have banned moonclips a couple of months after they realized they buggered it up - well before the goofy 5" barrel to 4" barrel debacle and well before the 625 grew to such popularity.

Gamer types....interesting concept. A stock 625 is considered gamey? Some would call it practical. Why fumble around with a spring loaded (hmm, can you say gamey?) Safari-compIII that shoots the rounds all over heck and back if you bump the little plunger during a high stress reload?

Different strokes for different folks, I suppose, but now those guys with 625's will be in the exact same position (you call it ironic, with a smile) as you were with speedloaders....if you don't think that the cream of the crop will be using 7-8 shot revolvers and utilizing those two extra rounds you're nuts. They'll be beating the 625's up and down the board by 2006 or before. Gamey? The rules make you gamey if you want to compete not just play around at local clubs.

So we have accomplished nothing but an equipment race in a new division and "fixed" the old one. Makes no sense .

[Ted Murphy]

Gamer types....interesting concept.  A stock 625 is considered gamey?  Some would call it practical.

It is practical now, what with it shooting 165 pf loads.

I think ESR is really meant as a forum for people to shoot revolvers that otherwise would have no home in IDPA. It would have been less work to make SSR the way they did and to heck with the moonguns, so I think in the end people will appreciate the fact they still have a forum to use those guns. That's my point.

I don't agree with the 7 and 8 shot guns in ESR. I said that quite a few posts ago. I'd have put them in SSP myself.

You're not going to make everyone happy. Witness my 11 shot stage at the Pa state match. Double stack ESP shooters thought that it was great, they finally had an advantage over the 9+1 shooters. Single stack shooters thought someone was out to get them on that one. Truth was a popper broke during set up so a 12 shot stage went to 11. Some shooters thought it was an attempt to "get" them, other people realized it was an attempt on our part to do the best with what we had.

SSR had a lot of real and perceived issues. I thought HQ did a nice job of trying to give SSR a fix without competely "dissing" the moongunners. YMMV there.

Ted

[MikeyG23]

Interesting what people here have latched onto in the rule book.  I think the part that makes me the most upset are the new holster and mag carrier rules.  All of my Comp-Tac equipment is now illegal, I have quite a few kydex paper weights now!!  grrrrrrr

BTW, before you ask, the 12 month stability rule applies to guns only, not equipment.

I'm pretty piss*d about the holster and mag pouch issue myself. It's beyond my comprehension that holsters that were accepted are are now ruled illegal.

What changed ? The holsters or the fact that BW doesn't sell any of the popular models ??

As soon as anyone figures out this holster cr*p, please let me know. I'm seriously thinking about e-mailing HQ and asking if they were on the approved list prior to 01/06/05 are they still acceptable. I'm almost positive that I won't like the answer but I think I'll ask the question on an outside chance.

The only thing I'm not piss*d about is that I held off buying gear for a new gun I have ordered.

Anyone have an opinion on the Comp Tac Speed Paddle ? Will it be legal under the new rules ?