REF?

[rtr]

Had an interesting one as a shooter at a USPSA Shotgun match.

Last target on the stage was a Texas Star, it had stacked barrels on both sides such that you could only see the top and bottom plates when the star was static. I shot off those two plates expecting more plates to come into view and the other plates never came into view, somehow by the two plates that were knocked off made the remaining 3 plates fall off. The star was set correctly originally as confirmed by the person who set it. So is this a REF and a reshoot, a clean run that gets scored or something else?

[ChuckS]

REF.

[pjb45]

Ha. A similar situation happened at Nationals in Las Vegas. No REF was issued.

[ac4wordplay]

Ha. A similar situation happened at Nationals in Las Vegas. No REF was issued.

USPSA MG Nationals?

When was this? USPSA MG Nationals hasn't used a Texas star in at least three years.

[rtr]

10.7.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all competitors. Range equipment failure includes, but is not limited to, the displacement of paper targets, the premature activation of metal or moving targets, the failure to reset moving targets or steel targets, the malfunction of mechanically or electrically operated equipment, and the failure of props such as openings, ports, and barriers.

Dunno if this falls under "premature activation of metal or moving targets"?

[CJW]

As I recall, under the old USPSA rules any target that fell without being shot at was a REF—that is, five targets fall with less than five shots fired = REF. I also seem to recall that resulted in a lot of reshoots the last time MG Nationals was run under the old ruleset…

I would assume (with all due emphasis on that word) that the revised MG rules allow for multiple targets per shot. On the other hand, if the Star was not the last target and you had to stand there waiting for it before moving on because you couldn't tell you were done with it, I would hope that got called a REF and a reshoot.

Edited May 21, 2014 by CJW

[Doug H.]

10.7.2 Scoring metal targets which a Range Officer deems have fallen, overturned, or self-indicated due to a shot

on the supporting apparatus or prematurely fallen or moved for any reason will be treated as range

equipment failure (Exceptions see Rules 8.4.22, 8.4.23 & 8.4.25)

8.4.23 Metal scoring shotgun plates will be scored as a hit, if the plate falls from a hit on the plate, base

or supporting stand when the plate is shot at.

8.4.26 Frangible targets must break with a visible piece missing or separated from the original target to be

counted for score. A fixed frangible target that falls from a hit on its holder will be considered a hit.

I read all this stuff to mean that if you shoot the middle of the star, plate rack or similar item with a and the plates fall off it would be a REF, but if you hit the base holding a metal or frangible target with a shotgun and the target falls it is scored as a hit. As far as I remember there was never anything that said you couldn't hit 2 targets with one shot, as long as it was not a shoot through.

Doug

Edited May 21, 2014 by Doug H.

[StealthyBlagga]

This is the problem with shotgun stars... unless the springs are fresh and checked often, they weaken and drop plates prematurely. The same occurs with Polish Plate Racks when they get leaded up. This can happen when one falling plate hits another plate, or in extreme cases just by star movement. We try to keep our stars in tip-top condition, and we put a NS or hard cover plate in front of the central hub to avoid folks getting multiple plates with one "unintentional" hit to the hub.

To answer the rules question, I would not characterize it as REF if two adjacent plates fell off if at least one was legitimately hit (it is tough to be sure the pattern did not hit both plates), but I would call REF - and force a reshoot - if the shooter dropped multiple plates by shooting the central hub/frame superstructure. You can put specific wording in the WSB to spell this out, or do as we do and cover the hub with something the shooter won't want to waste ammo on.

Edited May 24, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[Benelli Chick]

He didn't shoot the hub, and the star was relatively new for that match. The rest of the quad had to hit most of them. That particular star often has a higher plate fall down and knock off a lower, but it was a pretty big surprise to him.

There were only two plates fully visible when it was still.

Top and bottom right, I think.

He shot those and waited for the others...even when I shot it, it took a while for things to get moving, and no one knows if one knocked off the others, because all the magic happened behind the barrels!

Luckily, last target array, so waiting and looking confused didn't cost him any clock time, but boy did he have a funny look on his face!

[co-exprs]

I'm learning very quickly about all the stuff the MD has to think about besides the front line obvious stuff. This is a very thought provoking thread!

We borrowed two different stars for this match. One was new and one was old. The new one was the star in question and has very low millage. The major difference between the two was the mating surface between the paddles and the arms. The newer design had paddles designed for ease of reset and at the same time, ease of departure. It works great for pistol, when you are hitting it with pistol major PF. But 1oz of shot doing 1200fps is more than 500pf! Not something I considered before the match.

Rocky Mountain Targets is designing us a new star for next year. The mating surfaces is something we've already begun discussing. These types of observations are great.