spo1 lower in shadow upper legal in production?

[smoothdraw]

the description of CZ guns are in the upper not lower. when we slap a shadow upper in Spo1 lower and remove the firing pin lifter, the gun is technically a shadow gun right? or it's still a SP01???

[tortuga]

That is a tough one. For me, I'd say you are within the intent of the rules and it is all good. Also nobody would be able to tell.

However, in a strict sense of the rules - The firearm is the frame. You would be removing a safety device from the frame - the lifter and spring. If someone wanted to be really nasty about the rules, they could. Appendix D.4.22

I'd run it and consider it a compliant built-from-stock-parts gun with a clear conscience, with a pre-b sear or a CGW sear with a spacer. Same frame, same slide, same guts as a shadow. Just don't call it an SP-01 converted to a Shadow or you are asking for a committee meeting.

By the way I am considering the same thing on a 75 SA Frame. Same issues.

Edited May 7, 2014 by tortuga

[IDescribe]

I believe there is some filing to be done on the frame, as well.

[kneelingatlas]

I'd say yes per appendix D4 21.3

[kneelingatlas]

Not to mention the SP01 frame is indistinguishable from the SP01 Shadow frame.

[tortuga]

I'd say yes per appendix D4 21.3

I wonder if I could put a DA trigger in my 75bSA and call it a Shadow

[kneelingatlas]

If you were using a Shadow upper, no one would know the difference, but a SA converted to DA? I dunno, I feel like it's been discussed, but since it's an OEM slide with the same profile I don't see why not per 21.3.

[Friction]

I'm not suggestion you look for ways to abuse the rules but it seems like in this case there would be no actuall advantage to you as the shooter so it's probably within the spirit of the rules even if it technically breaks them based on how they are written.

It's similiar to putting a G34 slide on a G17 frame of the same generation. Technically it's not legal but its impossible to tell and offers the shooter no advantage. Even though the serials wouldn't match if you said that either part was replaced due to a failure of the original no one could call you out.

[steel1212]

I don't honestly know BUT I'm pretty sure you can't remove factory present safeties right? The sp01 comes with a lifter in the sear block. Technically by switching the slide your removing the FPB.

Like I said I don't know. I would run it up to john.

[smoothdraw]

not looking to abuse. but i have a friend that has SP01 and like an SPO1 shadow and i have a spare shadow upper. I'm not sure if i put my upper to his lower and remove the FPB if it will be production compliant still.

[smoothdraw]

yes should not remove factory safety of guns but CZ guns description and serial number is on its upper. so technically the upper is the gun. the lower doesn't indicate type or model of gun only serial number. but it is not necessary that uou have same serial number for upper and lower to be production compliant isn't it???

[kneelingatlas]

No

[bikerburgess]

If you were using a Shadow upper, no one would know the difference, but a SA converted to DA? I dunno, I feel like it's been discussed, but since it's an OEM slide with the same profile I don't see why not per 21.3.[/quote

21.3 allows you to replace the slide with one that is the same size and shape, but it does not allow you to remove the firing pin block so it would not be legal

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[bikerburgess]

yes should not remove factory safety of guns but CZ guns description and serial number is on its upper. so technically the upper is the gun. the lower doesn't indicate type or model of gun only serial number. but it is not necessary that uou have same serial number for upper and lower to be production compliant isn't it???

So list the rule allowing changing the frame. production division is not set up for parts built guns only while specifically approved guns with limited modifications are allowed even if the constructed gun is the equal of a approved gun

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[smoothdraw]

so i go to a match and bring this and say this is shadow. will you say i can't because i change the frame? how can you prove?

Edited May 15, 2014 by smoothdraw

[cpa5oh]

On the picture above, the slide does not say "CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow"...which I think would indicate it came off of a CZ 75 non-SP-01 Shadow (the one with no dustcover)...if that's true, we'd easily know that the slide didn't come with the frame...but I think that might still be legal if the frame is a Shadow SP-01 frame (same size and shape as an SP-01 Shadow slide)...if it's an SP-01 frame (non-Shadow) then I think it'd technically not be legal because you've gotten rid of a firing pin block, but if I were you I'd just keep mum on all of that and shoot the gun.

[thompsoncustom]

I don't compete so take this with a grain of salt

But say you had a sp-01 shadow and the frame had to be replaced under factory warranty the serial numbers would no longer match I'm guessing that wouldn't disqualify you from production would it? If not I don't see how you could ever tell that the frame or slides were swapped.

[alma]

This kind of falls into the same bucket as whether to send your gun back into CZC to get an ACCU job done (technically Production illegal) versus buying a new Production legal CZC ACCU which is the same gun you would have after a retrofit.

[kneelingatlas]

I just received an email from John Amidon (the final USPSA rules authority) on this issue:

The rules state that you can replace the barrel and slide with aftermarket as long as they are the same caliber, contour and size, it however, also states that Removing or disabling firing-pin blocks or any other factory safety mechanism in Production division is specifically prohibited. Also, (8.1.2.4). It is the competitors responsibility to be able to demonstrate at any time that all factory safety mechanisms are functional, regardless of whether they are internal or external.

Short answer would be no, it is not legal in Production as it removes or disables one of the factory safties.

So there you have it.

[Czhase]

So technically if I replace an SP 01 Shadow upper with a 75 Shadow upper it's legal. No safety mechanisms have been eliminated.

"It's not what you know, it's what you can prove."

[kneelingatlas]

So technically if I replace an SP 01 Shadow upper with a 75 Shadow upper it's legal. No safety mechanisms have been eliminated.

"It's not what you know, it's what you can prove."

I don't know why you would, but I guess you could...

[trgt]

... but CZ guns description and serial number is on its upper. so technically the upper is the gun. the lower doesn't indicate type or model of gun only serial number ...

FWIW, my Accu-Shadow 9mm and my CTS LS-B .40 do not have a serial number on the upper, and both included barrels that just indicate caliber, no serial number as well.

Edited May 29, 2014 by trgt

[kneelingatlas]

I hate it when manufacturers put serial numbers on the barrel/slide; I have a few with three different serial numbers

[smoothdraw]

so maybe when i go to match the RO will get the lower serial number call CZ and ask if it comes from SPO1 or shadow....Yeah that could happen right :-)

[eerw]