Night Matches

[D.Hayden]

What's the biggest difference shooting night matches?

Assuming the AR has a light and laser

I'm assuming that the laser is easier to use on close targets.. say 10 yards? looking over the top of the rifle, than changing to the optic at some point further out?

Or is the flashlight and optic used a high percentage just like shooting in daylight?

Thanks in advance.. Dave

[Doug H.]

I shot the Crimson Trace night match a couple of times and I just shot like during the day but with lights on all my guns and the red dot sights that I normally use. I might try a laser on a Glock 34 this year but otherwise pretty much like normal but it helps shooting Open to begin with. The biggest problem for me was finding shotgun targets after a few shots because the dust obscured the targets. You learn to shoot the downwind ones first, if possible. I'm thinking about adding a bright blue light this year because the clays really stood out with the blue lensed flashlight I had last year.

My slowest stage 2 years in a row was the one where we used night vision and infrared laser. I seem to shoot slower with a laser on a rifle, like I'm sight seeing instead of running a stage.

Doug

Edited April 4, 2014 by Doug H.

[StealthyBlagga]

Some stuff I've learned after running and shooting several night matches:

1) All your guns must run 100% reliably... clearing malfunctions is exponentially more difficult in the dark.

2) Buy quality. You would be surprised how many lights and other accessories fall off the gun or simply shake apart in short order.

3) Simple is better - get a light with simple on-off modes only. Multi-mode lights (e.g. bright-dim-strobe) will inevitably end up in the wrong mode, which is very distracting (but very funny when it happens to other people).

4) Some ammo can be very smokey. When your white light hits smoke, it severely obscures the targets. Use low-smoke ammo if at all possible.

5) Same as above but for dust.

6) Both problem (4) and (5) above can be effectively eliminated by using a sound suppressor... if you own one, use it.

7) Get ALL your equipment together (mags loaded etc.) well before shooting. Scrambling to load mags etc. in the dark, in fact doing ANYTHING in the dark is a PITA.

8) Make sure your 2-handed grip does not deactivate your pistol weapon light. Mine did, and so I had to cut the switch off entirely on the left side (see photos below).

[toothandnail]

Maybe it's just me , but I think the TLR and similar were designed to be activated with the thumb

That's the way I activate mine, has always worked fine.

I use a light/laser on my pistol, weapon mounted light on rifle & SG.

+1 on less smokey powder, some guys disappeared in their smoke

we never experienced a dust problem.

It will be the most fun match you will attend, wish there were more around here, neighbors get kinda excited/upset hearing shooting after dark.

[D.Hayden]

Do you start with all the lights on, or do you turn them on when you pick up the gun?

I can see the issue with following the laser, vs just shooting... if the flashlight illuminates well enough, that seems it would be faster

[StealthyBlagga]

Maybe it's just me , but I think the TLR and similar were designed to be activated with the thumb

That's the way I activate mine, has always worked fine...

In a tactical situation when you are moving and searching this works, but for competition (and some static defense scenarios) having to hold the light on constantly is non-optimal. I prefer to switch to "constant on" mode - I removed the left side switch so I would not keep bumping the light off. No solution is better than any other, but I have seen several folks struggle on the clock with a light that keeps shutting off, so this is worth discovering before show time.

[StealthyBlagga]

Do you start with all the lights on, or do you turn them on when you pick up the gun?I can see the issue with following the laser, vs just shooting... if the flashlight illuminates well enough, that seems it would be faster

This was my experience also... I find a laser to be a distraction. With a good white light you get a wonderfully sharp iron sight picture, which for most of us is far more familiar and efficient. Lasers are for newbs

[toothandnail]

You will want your lights mounted either 12 or 6 o clock, for barricades or doorways.

The laser really helps when shooting in those awkward around barricades, under - over weak side. etc.

If your just shooting a flat open stage, no obstacles, probably wouldn't shave much time.

Most guys show-up having never tested their setups, almost all of those guys have problems.

One match several cops shot their duty gear, and found it to be an eye opening experience, much of it failed, or was wholly inadequate for any type of low light shooting.

[GreenDragon64]

Anybody using a Mossie Midnight Mount on a front sight? I've often wondered about the durability of them.

[D.Hayden]

The pistol, I think shooting with the light is the best option... have to test out how far the 100 lumen light will help

The rifle seems different.. with targets going out to say 50 yds.. do lights alone help enough.. or are you starting to use the laser out past 25 or 35 yards?

I can see how this would change if you have a 100 lumen light, vs a 600 lumen light

[MetropolisLake]

The rifle seems different.. with targets going out to say 50 yds.. do lights alone help enough.. or are you starting to use the laser out past 25 or 35 yards?

I can see how this would change if you have a 100 lumen light, vs a 600 lumen light

I have a cheap $50 light from Gander Mountain, was advertised at 225 lumens, and test it on my farm. With fresh batteries and it being pitch black, I can illuminate stuff enough to make out what it is over 200 yards away, and can easily use even cheaper magnified variable scopes (those aren't the best light transmitters) usually at least 100 yards, sometimes much further. An ACOG works great and I could shoot something at 200 yards with it in good conditions.

The bigger problem is when it is dusk or there are other light sources. Certain light wavelengths such as the more blue light work great if it's not competing with other lights, but I can't see nearly as far at dusk or if I'm competing with headlights and whatnot. When I'm in a hunting environment, I can see seemingly forever. We have 12 fields on 450 acres and I can stand in any of them and illuminate the trees on the other side.

Also learn from me before you make the same mistake - usually the best place for a light on a rifle is right where the shockwave from a compensator hit. I smashed my lens due to this. Otherwise it would still be perfect for my needs. You can back off a bit, but then you get this weird half moon light shape. You really just need to invest in a weapon light that can take the shock.

Edited April 7, 2014 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[D.Hayden]

The bigger problem is when it is dusk or there are other light sources.

This was my concern too.. thanks for the tip about mount position

[StealthyBlagga]

We always wait until total darkness before we start our night shoot so that all competitors face the same challenge. In total darkness you will be surprised how far even a basic weapon light can reach - I have shot out past 50 yards with even a 125 Lumen TLR3 (the weapon light installed on my home defense rifle shown below) and making hits is quite doable.

Edited April 7, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[D.Hayden]

For the different guns.. what's a good lumen output to shoot for?

I've decided on combos for the pistol/rifle

For rifle/pistol.. is 100 enough.. on up to super light Jesse mentioned, Streamlight HL at 600+

I really like the size of the Crimson Trace Rail Masters, and have a couple on the way for the rifle/pistol

But if there's need (maybe occasionally) for the higher output.. I'll get the Streamlight too

[Jesse Tischauser]

The pistol, I think shooting with the light is the best option... have to test out how far the 100 lumen light will help

The rifle seems different.. with targets going out to say 50 yds.. do lights alone help enough.. or are you starting to use the laser out past 25 or 35 yards?

I can see how this would change if you have a 100 lumen light, vs a 600 lumen light

Anything close a laser is fastest. Shoot from the hip. No need to shoulder a rifle even. Past 25 use a red dot if you got it on your pistol or a scope in your rifle. I haven't found a laser that or a way to mount a laser that stays put on a shotgun. Lasers allow you to shoot on the move with ease!

Edited April 9, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[Jesse Tischauser]

For the different guns.. what's a good lumen output to shoot for?

I've decided on combos for the pistol/rifle

For rifle/pistol.. is 100 enough.. on up to super light Jesse mentioned, Streamlight HL at 600+

I really like the size of the Crimson Trace Rail Masters, and have a couple on the way for the rifle/pistol

But if there's need (maybe occasionally) for the higher output.. I'll get the Streamlight too

The more the merrier IMHO. You can run anything though. Like strealthy said if your standing still shooting a bunch especially with a shotgun prepare to lies sight if targets due to smoke and dust. Watch the wind and dust from other shooters and shoot your way up wind during an array.

[D.Hayden]

That's a cool snap.. I didn't even think about sparklers!

[ben b.]

I had a surprise moment at the last night match after I had upgraded my SHTF AR with a new 225 lumen light just before the night match. It has a Trij tritium reflex optic, which has always been great. But the new superduper light was so bright on paper that it washed out the tritium dot and I shot by point shooting. I could have reverted to light-on to find target, light-off to shoot....or flipping up the BUIS...but I did not think of those things until the stage was over.

Duh.

[StealthyBlagga]

I had a surprise moment at the last night match after I had upgraded my SHTF AR with a new 225 lumen light just before the night match. It has a Trij tritium reflex optic, which has always been great. But the new superduper light was so bright on paper that it washed out the tritium dot and I shot by point shooting. I could have reverted to light-on to find target, light-off to shoot....or flipping up the BUIS...but I did not think of those things until the stage was over.

Duh.

This is perhaps the coolest thing about night shoots - you get to find out what equipment and techniques work and don't work before you REALLY need them... imagine finding this out in your living room at 2am

[ben b.]

The number of malfxns I have seen at night matches seems to increase x5 compared to regular, and fixing them is a real....nightmare. The last pistol night match, my squad had so many different Glock problems that we joked they were solar-powered.

[StealthyBlagga]

The number of malfxns I have seen at night matches seems to increase x5 compared to regular, and fixing them is a real....nightmare. The last pistol night match, my squad had so many different Glock problems that we joked they were solar-powered.

Indeed - pre-Gen4 Glocks have a reputation for not playing well with weapon lights... certainly my G22 did not.

[D.Hayden]

Indeed - pre-Gen4 Glocks have a reputation for not playing well with weapon lights... certainly my G22 did not.

What tends to be the issues with the Glocks?

[StealthyBlagga]

Indeed - pre-Gen4 Glocks have a reputation for not playing well with weapon lights... certainly my G22 did not.

What tends to be the issues with the Glocks?

IIRC the added weight of the weapon light causes the slide to cycle with less authority (frame distortion?). This was a particular problem with .40 caliber full size Glocks and weak magazine springs... reports of this phenomenon from police agencies was a primary motivation for changing the recoil system for Gen 4 guns. Try Googling for more details.

Edited April 18, 2014 by StealthyBlagga

[D.Hayden]

Indeed - pre-Gen4 Glocks have a reputation for not playing well with weapon lights... certainly my G22 did not.

What tends to be the issues with the Glocks?

IIRC the added weight of the weapon light causes the slide to cycle with less authority (frame distortion?). This was a particular problem with .40 caliber full size Glocks and weak magazine springs... reports of this phenomenon from police agencies was a primary motivation for changing the recoil system for Gen 4 guns. Try Googling for more details.

Wow.. I'm too much of a software guy to understand hardware.. thanks very much.. I'll be getting to the range this weekend to test the pistol before next weekend night match. Thanks very much

eta - editor cut off part of my reply

Edited April 18, 2014 by D.Hayden

[MarkCO]

Night match tips and tricks...

1. Make sure you shoot your firearms with an without lasers/lights during the day to ensure function.

2. On rifle lasers, understand and decide if you are going to use a parallel or crossover sightline to trajectory.

3. A little load tinkering at night with a variety of loads to check for smoke in all three weapons.

4. If you are going to use white light on any weapon during a stage, you are probably better off using white light on all of them.

5. Know how far you can easily ID targets at speed with white light and make sure it is beyond the max target distance for the match.

6. All white lights are not created equal even given the same lumens. For shotgun, you don't need 1000 lumens, but it should be as wide a beam as you can find. For rifle, I have found some in the 200 to 300 range that put more light on target at 150 yards than some in the 500 lumen range.

7. Plan the stages and target engagement order thinking about dust, smoke and weapon transitions including light intensity. In some cases, a quick step left or right halfway through an array can help a lot.

8. Be considerate of others with your white and green light when you are not on the clock.

There is nothing wrong with putting 2 lights on a long gun either. One say 100 lumens and one for long distance. Or two equivalent to cancel out the shadows. I've even seen a shotgun with 2 lasers used as a bracket. I have been trying a dispersed beam laser on the shotgun with a white light and it is pretty cool so far. Wal-Mart, duct tape and cheap lights and mounts won't last the match, so don't bother.

My night match gear is actually my "defense" gear now. My M&P has night sights, a CTC laser grip and a CMR202 white light. My rifle has 2 white lights and a Burris DBAL which includes an IR laser, a green laser and a Burris Fastfire. My shotgun has a white light and a green laser that throws a 12" circle at 18 yards. I have tried them all hunting at night and running some courses and so far, they are working well.