Night Matches

[D.Hayden]

Old thread.. back up

Lasers on Shotguns.. help,hindrance or completely unneeded?

The light mount I have now has a rail on it I could mount a laser on (I have an extra - thanks Crimson)..

[Mike41]

What mounts and lights would you recommend for a rifle for shots at 50 yds max for $150 or less? Would you recommend lights but mounted on a rail for easy removal like on a rail or a type that fasten on a more permanent basis.

Mike

[GregSmith]

Dave, I think it depends on how fast you can shoot in the dark. If you are fast, I think the laser causes some people to "over-aim." they spend too much time getting the laser in the dead center of the target. The people I've seen use lasers and are less speedy in general got good hits on targets using the laser (therefore less misses) I chose to go with a really bright headlamp and a light on the shotgun. I tried to make it as "daylight" as I could. Sometimes the headlamp washed out my sights, but overall I felt faster drying to shoot in the "day."

Then again, as with many aspects of shooting, if you can get a setup you like lasers or not, and practice the crap out of it until you feel comfortable, I'm sure you'll do fine as the indian would overcome the arrow. but those are my two cents.

[StealthyBlagga]

...

Lasers on Shotguns.. help,hindrance or completely unneeded?

...

I have generally NOT seen good outcomes from the use of lasers on any weapon system. As Greg points out, it tends to cause over-deliberate aiming, plus it is hard to find the laser dot if a target is standing out in space with no immediate backstop. It is especially worthless on a shotgun. Unless you are using night vision and an IR laser, and have people shooting back at you, skip the Buck Rogers gimmicks.

What mounts and lights would you recommend for a rifle for shots at 50 yds max for $150 or less? Would you recommend lights but mounted on a rail for easy removal like on a rail or a type that fasten on a more permanent basis.

After a lot of night matches with different configurations, I have settled on a reasonably powerful weapon light (on my rifle I use a 650 Lumen Streamlight TLR-1 HL, which would fit your budget). I like it mounted on the FF handguard's TOP Picatinny rail because it is easily activated with my support hand thumb, and is least likely to get occluded by walls/props. If you use a vertical foregrip you may also need a remote activation switch, but in my case it is not needed. For sights I run an Aimpoint red dot (ideally set the brightness with the light switched on and aimed at a target to ensure the dot does not wash out).

Another piece of advice: Check how smoky your ammo is. Some of my reloads puff smoke like an old-time steam train, and that smoke looks way worse at night with a white light hitting it. A rifle suppressor helps on slow-fire or short courses of fire, but after a few shots it fills up with smoke and thereafter the problem is the same. The best solution for a serious night match is to test different loads and assess which smokes the least.

Edited February 22, 2016 by StealthyBlagga

[Mike41]

StealthyBagga,

If you mount on top of rail, does it obstruct very much of your view?

Thanks,

Mike

[StealthyBlagga]

StealthyBagga,

If you mount on top of rail, does it obstruct very much of your view?

Thanks,

Mike

Nope. Shoot the red dot with both eyes open.

[Langenator]

I've been to a few night matches that are pretty scary. Please talk to some guys who have set them up and run them who know what they are doing. Lights/glow sticks on every person, range clearing protocols, etc.

A trick/SOP we used doing night gunnery when I was stationed in Germany was to hang a red chemlight on the front of the turret, and a green on the back. If the tower saw the red light, they called cease fire until the crew pulled their heads out of their butts.

Might not need two lights, but I'm sure you could figure out some variant.

[Chuck Anderson]

I had the best luck with lasers on pistol and rifle, not shotgun. The issue was more to do with competition than tactical. For three gun we usually shoot clays or small steel targets with the shotgun. Which means there's only a few inches margin of error on the shotgun for aiming. If you were shooting a person you'd have more space to get the laser centered. Pistol targets and rifle targets tend to be easier to hit with the laser.

The first night match I ran I didn't use any lasers. Figured I'd done enough night shooting in LE without them I wasn't worried about it. I was wrong. Got my ass kicked by guys effectively running lasers. If you put in a bit of time with them they are damn fast at night. Day? not so much outdoors.

I used two lights on the rifle. One a very bright focused light for long range stages and a shorter, not as overpowering light for short courses. Found out if I tried running the 1000 Lumen beam up close it just blinded me.

[Langenator]

Maybe a dumb question, but how many night matches allow lasers? I've only shot two, but neither one allowed lasers. (Except for one sponsored stage, shot using sponsor-provided NVGs with a suppressed Glock with an IR laser.)

[ben b.]

Chuck, what night matches are you talking about? I'm unaware of any in OR besides ARPC, and no lasers there.

[Langenator]

IIRC, the Crimson Trace sponsored match was in Oregon. Is it still around?

[gerritm]

Dave, the Walking Dead Match in Cresson Tx allows lights, lasers, and red dots on all weapons. Every shot was a head shot on a standard IPSC type target or steel/clays. I ran red dots on pistol and shotgun, with my illuminated reticle Vortex Stride Eagle. 1 light on each weapon. Most powerful on rifle around 350 lumens on rifle. TLR1 with red dot on pistol and shotgun. Plenty for this match. Nick ran a laser on his pistol, helped with the longer tight head shots. Really didn't need the laser on rifle or shotgun. Many used green and red lasers on all weapons especially with no red dot. Did not want too powerful a light on the shotgun due to dust and smoke, biggest problems at night with all weapons. Start with weapon light/laser off, but can have a headlamp, turn on at buzzer. Match was a blast.

gerritm

Edited February 26, 2016 by gerritm

[Doug H.]

IIRC, the Crimson Trace sponsored match was in Oregon. Is it still around?

No. It may have moved east but is no longer at COSSA in Bend. By the way, a blue filter on your light will make those orange clays pop out of the smoke.

Doug

Edited February 26, 2016 by Doug H.

[logiztix]

There has been a night match every year in Florence, Oregon at Siuslaw Rod & Gun Club. It had been only an IDPA Pistol match until three years ago. There is now a division for lasers and optics on all 3 guns. The last two years have even had prop gun stages with Night Vision Rifle. The big downside is that range rules (and local ordinances) require shooting to stop at 9:30 PM, so they are in the dead of winter and limited in the number of shooters that can be accommodated within the usable night window.

On the equipment side, a Streamlight TLR-1-HP will illuminate reactive steel at 300 yards and provide a nice 'laser-ish' aiming point good for two-anywhere scoring out to about 15 yards. Also agree with the laser on a shotgun slowing things down at the accuracy standards needed for bird-shot. If it doesn't show up on the clay it shows up 20 yards downrange where it distracts from a good enough aiming standard.

[Langenator]

Dave, the Walking Dead Match in Cresson Tx allows lights, lasers, and red dots on all weapons. Every shot was a head shot on a standard IPSC type target or steel/clays. I ran red dots on pistol and shotgun, with my illuminated reticle Vortex Stride Eagle. 1 light on each weapon. Most powerful on rifle around 350 lumens on rifle. TLR1 with red dot on pistol and shotgun. Plenty for this match. Nick ran a laser on his pistol, helped with the longer tight head shots. Really didn't need the laser on rifle or shotgun. Many used green and red lasers on all weapons especially with no red dot. Did not want too powerful a light on the shotgun due to dust and smoke, biggest problems at night with all weapons. Start with weapon light/laser off, but can have a headlamp, turn on at buzzer. Match was a blast.

gerritm

I shot Walking Dead the first year they did it, back in 2012. No lasers allowed. Also, it was 2-gun, no shotguns.

I can see where lasers would be useful, especially on the pistol.

I just remember what a PITA it was to boresight the PAQ-4/PEQ-2 back when I was still in the infantry. But once you got it good, you could hipshoot targets at 200m.

[gerritm]

It has evolved, great match, heard they might go to a 2 night format next year. Even added an open div. for mag fed shotguns.

gerritm

[Langenator]

Well, I'm retiring in a few months, and I've applied for several jobs in TX. Maybe I'll make it back next year.

[gerritm]

Well, I'm retiring in a few months, and I've applied for several jobs in TX. Maybe I'll make it back next year.

It would be good to have you back.

gerrit