10.5.16 and "Facing Uprange"

[waktasz]

As we know, "Facing Uprange" has a very specific definition. (Face and feet pointing directly (90°) away from the

backstop with shoulders parallel to the backstop. )

Rule 10.5.16 prohibits drawing while facing uprange, but what is there to prevent someone from beginning the draw (exposing the trigger guard) when not actually facing fully uprange? For example, they grip the gun and begin to turn, pull the gun up a few inches exposing the trigger guard, but never actually break the 180 with their muzzle. Once they are fully turned the muzzle then clears the holster and they shoot the stage. This is not allowed, but what is the rule to apply?

Does 10.5.16 need to be changed in wording a bit so that someone who doesn't have face and feet pointing directly uprange can argue that what they did was not illegal?

[Sarge]

Look up DRAW in the definitions in the rule book.

Access to the trigger= draw

[Racer377]

Look up DRAW in the definitions in the rule book.

Access to the trigger= draw

That misses the question.

[Sarge]

Look up DRAW in the definitions in the rule book.

Access to the trigger= draw

That misses the question.

How so? If you expose the trigger you drew the gun. has nothing to do with muzzle still being in holster. The rule that applies is the rule the OP quoted. Nothing needs changed.

[waktasz]

10.5.16 says you can't draw while facing uprange. If I'm facing 10 degrees away from uprange, I'm not facing uprange, and I haven't broken the 180 with my muzzle.

[Racer377]

Look up DRAW in the definitions in the rule book.

Access to the trigger= draw

That misses the question.

How so? If you expose the trigger you drew the gun. has nothing to do with muzzle still being in holster. The rule that applies is the rule the OP quoted. Nothing needs changed.

There are 2 dqs possible on this situation - 10.5.16 drawing while facing uprange and 10.5.2, muzzle breaking the 180.

Facing up range is very specifically defined, as noted in the op. So if one were to be facing up range, turn 45 degrees and lift the gun out of the holster without breaking, he has not violated either 10.5.2 or .16.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Racer377

[Sarge]

Don't do it!

I suggest you email DNROI and see what he says.

[deacon12224]

See the following NROI ruling from 2008:

11/11/08

Updated:

11/18/08

Effective:

11/18/08

Rule Number:

10.5.16

Applies to:

Pistol

Ruling Authority:

John Amidon

Status:

Released

Question:

The glossary in Appendix A3 gives the definition of facing uprange as "face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders parrell to the 90-degree median intercept of the back-stop. so if on the start signal my eyes turn towards the direction I am turning and my shoulders and feet are no longer in the their original position, am I considered to no longer being facing uprange and may draw my handgun without violating 10.5.16

Answer:

In order to assure consistent application of this rule, the following shall apply: After the start signal, regardless of the type of holster used, access to the trigger is prohibited until the competitor has rotated his body sufficiently to cause the holster's muzzle line to have passed through the point which represents "90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop".

[waktasz]

Perfect. Thank you.

[waktasz]

Don't do it!

I suggest you email DNROI and see what he says.

Don't worry, it's not something I'm going to try. Just trying to help another shooter not get himself DQd at a later date, and trying to explain the why part of the issue.

Thanks

[Andreas]

See the following NROI ruling from 2008:

…

Answer:

In order to assure consistent application of this rule, the following shall apply: After the start signal, regardless of the type of holster used, access to the trigger is prohibited until the competitor has rotated his body sufficiently to cause the holster's muzzle line to have passed through the point which represents "90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop".

One could read this to mean that it's illegal to draw from a holster that has a forward (FBI) cant when facing downrange, because then the muzzle line will be pointing uprange.

[waktasz]

There is an exception for that already.

[waktasz]

See the following NROI ruling from 2008:

Question:

The glossary in Appendix A3 gives the definition of facing uprange as "face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders parrell to the 90-degree median intercept of the back-stop. so if on the start signal my eyes turn towards the direction I am turning and my shoulders and feet are no longer in the their original position, am I considered to no longer being facing uprange and may draw my handgun without violating 10.5.16

Answer:

In order to assure consistent application of this rule, the following shall apply: After the start signal, regardless of the type of holster used, access to the trigger is prohibited until the competitor has rotated his body sufficiently to cause the holster's muzzle line to have passed through the point which represents "90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop".

ok, I have to apologize because after re-reading this I still don't get it.

Is this saying

A: you can't expose the trigger at all until your body is turned

or

B: you can expose the trigger as long as your muzzle doesn't break the 180

??

[waktasz]

Here's what we are discussing.

I know video isn't admissible, etc. I'm not trying to internet DQ this guy, just learn the rule and make sure he doesn't get sent packing at his next match.

Assuming the RO here is facing directly downrange, and for the sake of argument that the trigger is exposed in this picture, what's the call?

[Andreas]

I'm the guy in the picture, and this is a stage in the AL USPSA Pistol Sectional that got a bunch of people sent home. I didn't break the 180 on the draw, but I sure was starting to clear leather during my turn. The holster is a DAA PDR without the DOH attachment; it has a slight forward cant.

[StraightUp_OG]

I am more worried about that finger! It is almost in the trigger! Gotta say I would be talking to the shooter (posted just above) after this one.

Edited March 18, 2014 by StraightUp_OG

[Racer377]

No DQ. Muzzle line of holster is <90 degrees from median intercept.

If that were a typical race holster set up such that the holstered gun points to a spot in front of his feet (rearward cant), he's done for the day.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Racer377

[deacon12224]

As has been explained to me in multiple RO seminars and by a reading of the NROI ruling, when facing up range, until your body turns 90 degrees so that you are now facing the 180, the trigger cannot be exposed at all. From the angle of the picture, I can't tell if the trigger is exposed. If the trigger is exposed in that picture, DQ.

[waktasz]

That would be my interpretation also but even that ruling doesn't say it as clearly as you just did.

Edited March 18, 2014 by waktasz

[Andreas]

As has been explained to me in multiple RO seminars and by a reading of the NROI ruling, when facing up range, until your body turns 90 degrees so that you are now facing the 180, the trigger cannot be exposed at all. From the angle of the picture, I can't tell if the trigger is exposed. If the trigger is exposed in that picture, DQ.

That seems an important enough point to warrant inclusion in the rulebook.

[Racer377]

As has been explained to me in multiple RO seminars and by a reading of the NROI ruling, when facing up range, until your body turns 90 degrees so that you are now facing the 180, the trigger cannot be exposed at all. From the angle of the picture, I can't tell if the trigger is exposed. If the trigger is exposed in that picture, DQ.

That seems an important enough point to warrant inclusion in the rulebook.

Why bother including it if simple hearsay is just as good?

[sperman]

As has been explained to me in multiple RO seminars and by a reading of the NROI ruling, when facing up range, until your body turns 90 degrees so that you are now facing the 180, the trigger cannot be exposed at all. From the angle of the picture, I can't tell if the trigger is exposed. If the trigger is exposed in that picture, DQ.

That's the way I interpret the rules and the NROI ruling. If your hips aren't at least perpendicular to the back berm, you better not expose the trigger.

I really hate stages that have an uprange start, with a target right on the 180. (I haven't seen the stage in question, but I assume that is the case.) Yes, we as shooters should have the skills necessary to safely draw the pistol on this type of stage, but it is just asking for guys to break the 180. Breaking the 180 is a bad thing, right? That's why people no longer get to shoot if they do it. So why setup stages that significantly increase the chances of it happening?

[ZackJones]

Interesting discussion. I grabbed this screen capture of me shooting the stage. Pistol is M&P Pro and holster is Blade-tech. What do you guys say - was a drawing to soon?

Edit to add PDF stage description so everyone can see the layout of the stage in question.

BAY 3 - Old West Shootout.pdf

Edited March 18, 2014 by ZackJones

[ac4wordplay]

[snip] ... the holster's muzzle line to have passed through the point which represents ... [snip]

Does everybody agree on exactly what this (above quote) means? I've heard reasonable people interpret/misinterpret it differently. It seems that further clarification would be helpful.

[Racer377]

As has been explained to me in multiple RO seminars and by a reading of the NROI ruling, when facing up range, until your body turns 90 degrees so that you are now facing the 180, the trigger cannot be exposed at all. From the angle of the picture, I can't tell if the trigger is exposed. If the trigger is exposed in that picture, DQ.

That's the way I interpret the rules and the NROI ruling. If your hips aren't at least perpendicular to the back berm, you better not expose the trigger.

I really hate stages that have an uprange start, with a target right on the 180. (I haven't seen the stage in question, but I assume that is the case.) Yes, we as shooters should have the skills necessary to safely draw the pistol on this type of stage, but it is just asking for guys to break the 180. Breaking the 180 is a bad thing, right? That's why people no longer get to shoot if they do it. So why setup stages that significantly increase the chances of it happening?

The official ruling says nothing about hips being perpendicular or 90 degrees.

It says muzzle line of holster less than 90 from median intercept.

If someone can rotate such that the muzzle line of their holster doesn't break 180, they're in compliance with the rule as written regardless of their hip position.