Receiving help on the COF

[sperman]

I agree. If the shooter never made a move for the mag, then no harm no fowl if another shooter picked up his mag. But the minute another person becomes involved, whether its another shooter handing him his mag, or the RO being in the way of the shooter, the attempt of fire has been interfered with and a re-shoot is in order. Like I said earlier, the only exception would be if the shooter ignored the person handing him the mag, and continued with the ULSC routine. If the shooter says he was done and it had no impact on his attempt at the course of fire, there is no interference, and thus no re-shoot.

[Nik Habicht]

The safe retrieval means the shooter has to basically not break the 180 sweep self etc to retrieve it. The shooter who is VERY familiar with the rules and can think fast on their feet can certainly have an advantage. You may think the shooter got a break if he gets a reshoot and feel he deserves a bad score but if it was interfered and he is unable to complete his run due to interference and it will probibally go up to the rm or arbitration committee.

And I'm beginning to believe he'd win that arb.

Kevin,

if I was working as RM, and got called to a stage where a competitor tried to retrieve a dropped mag safely, only to find that someone else had already picked it up -- that wouldn't get to an arb committee. I'd order a reshoot.....

....and counsel the stage staff to keep the FFZ clear of competitors until "Range is clear" is called. It's the very rare bay that benefits from scoring behind the shooter, whole the COF is being shot. If it's truly beneficial, you probably need a staff of at least 4 -- Timer RO, second RO moving forward with him to watch the angles the timer RO can't see, clipboard RO scoring behind the first two, while being alert for the possibility of retrograde movement, and a fourth guy to prevent entry into the rear of the FFZ/control the rest of the squad/provide rear overwatch for any potential danger.

[Nik Habicht]

The safe retrieval means the shooter has to basically not break the 180 sweep self etc to retrieve it. The shooter who is VERY familiar with the rules and can think fast on their feet can certainly have an advantage. You may think the shooter got a break if he gets a reshoot and feel he deserves a bad score but if it was interfered and he is unable to complete his run due to interference and it will probibally go up to the rm or arbitration committee.

And I'm beginning to believe he'd win that arb.

I think that he would. It wasn't his fault that another shooter interrupted his run before it was over.

I'm also pretty sure he'd lose the arb, though, if he went ahead and used the magazine (by which I mean firing a shot from that mag). At that point it changes to receiving assistance during the COF. I can't see claiming interference or an unfair change in the COF if the shooter actually benefitted from Mr. Happy's overzealous help.

I probably agree here as well -- haven't finished thinking this scenario through/encountered it yet....

[Nik Habicht]

Sorry.

No where in the rules does it say anything about "entering into agreements"!

1. The mags should have never been picked up.

2. There should have never been a competitor close enough to proffer a picked up mag.

3. The simple fact that a competitor spoke to or handed the shooter a mag is interferance from the time that "make ready" to "range is clear" commands are given.

4. Having any one on the range could be ruled interferance if it impedes the shooter in anyway IE: retreating to recover said dropped mag. The range personnel are reponsible for getting out of the way, and either the shooter stops themself or the RO should be yelling stop if anyone is downrange of the shooter due to a hasty retreat.

In my mind as a RO the competitor owns the entire stage during his run. My only job is to make sure that he completes it safely in accordance with the WSB, administer any procedurals or DQ earned, and keep myself and anyone else out of his way and safe!

I realize that on sunday everyone wants to have a fun match and shoot thier best and get HOME, and sometimes we try to expedite thigs byscoring and pasting as we move forward.

Unfortunately an a rare occasion it bites our ass.

FWIW

Mildot

And that's why I'm not sure on this situation -- that's a pretty cogent argument for a reshoot. Gotta noodle on that one a bit more....

[alma]

So I feel very comfortable in saying that the competitor should be offered a reshoot and the other guy could be getting a procedural at the discretion of the RO.

Previously I said that I would stop him right there (after the other guy handed him the mag) and issue a reshoot but given the rule (8.6.4) it doesn't say to stop him, it says to offer a reshoot. In this case then the right call might have been to let him finish shooting, unload and show clear, and then ask if he wants to reshoot. It's very clear that reshoot is in order but I don't know when you would yell "stop."

[EkuJustice]

You tell stop when a safety issue has occurred. I would also yell stop if something became disturbed in the stage that's gonna get a reshoot. Ie a popper falls at the end of the stage stop the shooter from wasting the ammo and slowing everything down

[Nik Habicht]

You tell stop when a safety issue has occurred. I would also yell stop if something became disturbed in the stage that's gonna get a reshoot. Ie a popper falls at the end of the stage stop the shooter from wasting the ammo and slowing everything down

Don't be yelling stop if you're going to offer a reshoot due to interference.....

That reshoot should be optional, not mandatory....

[sperman]

So I feel very comfortable in saying that the competitor should be offered a reshoot and the other guy could be getting a procedural at the discretion of the RO.

Previously I said that I would stop him right there (after the other guy handed him the mag) and issue a reshoot but given the rule (8.6.4) it doesn't say to stop him, it says to offer a reshoot. In this case then the right call might have been to let him finish shooting, unload and show clear, and then ask if he wants to reshoot. It's very clear that reshoot is in order but I don't know when you would yell "stop."

I would yell "Stop" the minute the 3rd party handed a mag to the competitor. You can't ignore the fact that the shooter was either going to a: receive a bunch of mike and FTSA penalties, or b: burn a bunch of time going back to retrieve a dropped mag. Having a mag handed to him gives this shooter a huge advantage. Unfortunately so does a re-shoot, but that still feels like the appropriate course of action to me.

[alma]

So I feel very comfortable in saying that the competitor should be offered a reshoot and the other guy could be getting a procedural at the discretion of the RO.

Previously I said that I would stop him right there (after the other guy handed him the mag) and issue a reshoot but given the rule (8.6.4) it doesn't say to stop him, it says to offer a reshoot. In this case then the right call might have been to let him finish shooting, unload and show clear, and then ask if he wants to reshoot. It's very clear that reshoot is in order but I don't know when you would yell "stop."

I would yell "Stop" the minute the 3rd party handed a mag to the competitor. You can't ignore the fact that the shooter was either going to a: receive a bunch of mike and FTSA penalties, or b: burn a bunch of time going back to retrieve a dropped mag. Having a mag handed to him gives this shooter a huge advantage. Unfortunately so does a re-shoot, but that still feels like the appropriate course of action to me.

It feels right to me too but I can't find a place in the rule book to support stopping immediately to be the correct call. I suppose if we think there is a safety issue with the other guy who is running through the course of fire to hand the magazine to the shooter then it could warrant an immediate stop but otherwise 8.6.4 seems to say let him finish and offer a reshoot. Like I said preciously, this screws up the stage enough that my first reaction would be to stop it then and there and order the reshoot.

[tackdr1ver]

redacted

Edited February 28, 2014 by tackdr1ver

[Poppa Bear]

I would not call stop unless the helper walked up to the shooter while ignoring my arm that I have outstretched to keep him back.

The shooter needs to either say he is done, or immediately claim interference.

[sfchorn]

Just to play devil's advocate....

Competitor accepts offered magazine and completes course of fire. RO decides to invoke 10.6, DQ competitor for cheating and issue a procedural to Mr. Helper. Competitor objects, claiming there is a stated penalty in the rulebook for accepting the offered mag. That penalty is one procedural. The competitor claims they decided the one procedural was worth not incurring the mikes/FTEs that would have ensued had he not been able to complete the course of fire.

In essence, competitor claims he wasn't cheating, just willing to accept the penalty the rulebook allows.

To add another layer of complexity to the issue, does it matter the experience level of the competitor? Would you believe someone new to the sport over an experienced competitor? Would you believe someone with a reputation for honesty over someone that you feel has done questionable things in the past?

Interesting things to noodle over as an RO, RM or possibly member of an arb committee.

Edited to agree the entire situation could have been avoided by not having tapers on a COF during a run.

Edited March 7, 2014 by sfchorn

[alma]

What is cheating? How do you define it? I don't think this would qualify. It is not some catch-all IDPA-esk FTDR.

All that matters is that he was interrupted before he finished the stage. We all have to make split second decisions to solve problems in this sport which we might have not contemplated beforehand. Someone handed him his mag (which he should not have done) and the shooter reacted. How much time do you think he spent contemplating whether it was legal for him to accept the offer or not? At the end of the day it should have never been offered so unless he was unsafe nothing after the offer really matters; his run had been disrupted by no fault of his own.

[deacon12224]

Don't you think that having another competitor on the stage closing enough to hand the shooter a dropped mag is enough of a safety issue to call stop? Stop him, order a reshoot, and decide if you want to give procedurals to the shooter or the helper or both.

[kevin c]

Don't you think that having another competitor on the stage closing enough to hand the shooter a dropped mag is enough of a safety issue to call stop?

Some said yes, others said no. Some would call interference (see all the responses above)

Stop him, order a reshoot, and decide if you want to give procedurals to the shooter or the helper or both.

I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that, if you give a reshoot, it starts with a clean slate for the shooter - no carry over penalties. I think you can make an inappropriate outside help procedural stick to the helper, but not to the shooter if you're giving him the chance to shoot it over.

[John Z Sr]

I've seen new shooters at a local match that were going to run out of ammo on a stage with a lot of steel and either picked up a dropped mag or pulled a mag off of my belt (if they were running the same gun) so they can finish the stage. The shooter is already going to finish dead last on the stage. They are more likely to return if they enjoy the match instead of running out of ammo before they finish the stage. Maybe I should have been given a procedural.

Normally how I call stuff, in my humble opinion, it's far better to use some judgement and keep a first time shooter coming back, then just issuing Procedurals all around, as the book states. 2 weeks ago, I was pulled over for doing 64 in a 55 by the NCHP, the Trooper knew I was not a "New Driver" and I had broken the rule, but I was polite, as was he, and he gave me a warning instead of a ticket, end result, I watch my speed much more closely now, thanks to him, just sayin'

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Or is it the fault of the RO for allowing other shooters onto the COF to tape etc. Before it's over?

Who's fault is it when someone forgets to tape a target or sets a singer incorrect causing a range failure? In these cases it's essentially the RO's responsibility to ensure the stage is ready and the shooter who set the swinger wrong wouldn't be getting a penalty.

Not throwing stones at OP BUT:

Is it NOT the responsibility of the RO to prevent the helper from contacting the shooter? It is an unsafe action by the helper . 7.1.1

I don't move as fast as most shooters due to knee and ankle problems but I still keep myself between the shooter and the rest of the squad.

For penalties:

I would look real close at 10.3.1 for the "Helper" He has created a possible (Not definite since I was not there) safety issue by contacting the shooter.

I would look at 10.6.2 for the interference in the course of fire for the helper

Ultimately, it is poor match administration for scoring ans resetting prior to the finish of the course of fire. There needs to be a better way or limit the size of the course.

[alma]

Or is it the fault of the RO for allowing other shooters onto the COF to tape etc. Before it's over?

Who's fault is it when someone forgets to tape a target or sets a singer incorrect causing a range failure? In these cases it's essentially the RO's responsibility to ensure the stage is ready and the shooter who set the swinger wrong wouldn't be getting a penalty.

Not throwing stones at OP BUT:

Is it NOT the responsibility of the RO to prevent the helper from contacting the shooter? It is an unsafe action by the helper . 7.1.1

I don't move as fast as most shooters due to knee and ankle problems but I still keep myself between the shooter and the rest of the squad.

For penalties:

I would look real close at 10.3.1 for the "Helper" He has created a possible (Not definite since I was not there) safety issue by contacting the shooter.

I would look at 10.6.2 for the interference in the course of fire for the helper

Ultimately, it is poor match administration for scoring ans resetting prior to the finish of the course of fire. There needs to be a better way or limit the size of the course.

I respectfully disagree.

I this example the RO is also filling the role of the CRO for the COF.

7.1.2 Chief Range Officer (CRO) is the primary authority over all

persons and activities in the courses of fire under his control, and

oversees the fair, correct and consistent application of these rules (under

the authority of the Range Master).

Thanks for pointing out 10.6.2. I didn't realize DQ was a possible ruling but in my opinion what the helper did would not fall into the Unsportsmanlike Conduct category under which this rule falls. He seemed to be honestly trying to help but wasn't thinking about the rules or possible impact of his actions.

Edited March 8, 2014 by alma

[Sarge]

Or is it the fault of the RO for allowing other shooters onto the COF to tape etc. Before it's over?

Who's fault is it when someone forgets to tape a target or sets a singer incorrect causing a range failure? In these cases it's essentially the RO's responsibility to ensure the stage is ready and the shooter who set the swinger wrong wouldn't be getting a penalty.

Is it NOT the responsibility of the RO to prevent the helper from contacting the shooter? It is an unsafe action by the helper . 7.1.1

If a "helper" comes up behind you and reaches out to hand a shooter a mag and you stop him from doing so, didn't you just assist the shooter? I think it's within reason to think so.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Or is it the fault of the RO for allowing other shooters onto the COF to tape etc. Before it's over?

Who's fault is it when someone forgets to tape a target or sets a singer incorrect causing a range failure? In these cases it's essentially the RO's responsibility to ensure the stage is ready and the shooter who set the swinger wrong wouldn't be getting a penalty.

Is it NOT the responsibility of the RO to prevent the helper from contacting the shooter? It is an unsafe action by the helper . 7.1.1

If a "helper" comes up behind you and reaches out to hand a shooter a mag and you stop him from doing so, didn't you just assist the shooter? I think it's within reason to think so.

Isn't that one of the duties of the RO?

Preventing the "helper" from making contact is part of the job and necessary to maintain safety

Edited March 8, 2014 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[Nik Habicht]

Or is it the fault of the RO for allowing other shooters onto the COF to tape etc. Before it's over?

Who's fault is it when someone forgets to tape a target or sets a singer incorrect causing a range failure? In these cases it's essentially the RO's responsibility to ensure the stage is ready and the shooter who set the swinger wrong wouldn't be getting a penalty.

Is it NOT the responsibility of the RO to prevent the helper from contacting the shooter? It is an unsafe action by the helper . 7.1.1

If a "helper" comes up behind you and reaches out to hand a shooter a mag and you stop him from doing so, didn't you just assist the shooter? I think it's within reason to think so.

Nope. If anyone other than another RO is that close to me, there's a safety issue.....

It's an additional body to keep track of, and another distraction for the RO, who should be able to concentrate on the shooter.....

There's no way that I would consider shooing the helper away to be helping the competitor.....

[Sarge]

I think it could leave the door wide open to cheating. Of course, if all involved are newbies then handing somebody a mag is not the same as two buddies who are trying to place well in a match by helping each other with ammo. On a different note, I have never been a fan of trying to score a stage before it is complete. Maybe if bad weather is moving in and we want to avoid it or something. But doing it just to make things go faster...... I don't understand the thought process of, "let's go shoot a match with friends but do it as fast as we can." I'm not in a hurry when I head out the door on match day. I want it to last.

[Nik Habicht]

Sarge,

how exactly will that open the door to cheating? At a major match you should have sufficient stage staff that the helper never gets far enough down range to be a problem -- in other words one of the other ROs should be stopping him.....

At a local, where staffing is usually tighter, you also see people over and over -- and as long as all reshoots need to be reported to the MD, there should exist a possibility of identifying any less than ethical individuals and dealing with them appropriately......

[Sarge]

Sarge,

how exactly will that open the door to cheating? At a major match you should have sufficient stage staff that the helper never gets far enough down range to be a problem -- in other words one of the other ROs should be stopping him.....

At a local, where staffing is usually tighter, you also see people over and over -- and as long as all reshoots need to be reported to the MD, there should exist a possibility of identifying any less than ethical individuals and dealing with them appropriately......

It has never been a secret that I believe there are unethical players in this game just like there are in any other. Practical shooters are. as a rule, great people who will help others at the drop of a hat. But, on the flip side there are many who only want one thing, to win at all costs. I know it. I have seen it. It's ugly.

Let's say a shooter has a bad run and his "buddy" knows it. What better way to get him a reshoot than to walk up and interfere with his run? What if the shooter and RO are buddies? Shooter runs out of ammo and another guy walks up and hands him ammo. RO does not intervene for this shooter but does for another shooter.

Would this be common? Of course not. But keeping people off of the COF closes all doors.

[alma]

Sarge,

how exactly will that open the door to cheating? At a major match you should have sufficient stage staff that the helper never gets far enough down range to be a problem -- in other words one of the other ROs should be stopping him.....

At a local, where staffing is usually tighter, you also see people over and over -- and as long as all reshoots need to be reported to the MD, there should exist a possibility of identifying any less than ethical individuals and dealing with them appropriately......

It has never been a secret that I believe there are unethical players in this game just like there are in any other. Practical shooters are. as a rule, great people who will help others at the drop of a hat. But, on the flip side there are many who only want one thing, to win at all costs. I know it. I have seen it. It's ugly.

Let's say a shooter has a bad run and his "buddy" knows it. What better way to get him a reshoot than to walk up and interfere with his run? What if the shooter and RO are buddies? Shooter runs out of ammo and another guy walks up and hands him ammo. RO does not intervene for this shooter but does for another shooter.

Would this be common? Of course not. But keeping people off of the COF closes all doors.

Good points but I think that is why the RO is given some discretion to hand out penalties for interference or even a DQ if it was intentional cheating.

I prefer to give folks the benefit of the doubt that actions are not malicious nut I have certainly seen it.