IDPA and the foolishness

[BillR1]

no BillR1 thats not how its called "around these parts" ....sans the subjectability of a rule that once was clear but now is subject to "home rule."

LOL..did you bother to read the rules clarification I posted from IDPA? It removes the interpretation issue. If SOs are not following the rulebook, then again that points to an SO issue and not the rulebook.

Read the book Chuck...you know you still care!

[alma]

So... Yes?

[BillR1]

So... Yes?

Yes, you CAN pivot on one foot while reloading.

[Chuck D]

I know what the rule says Bill...the way its written gives SOs the opportunity to apply their "spin" on it which you have yet to fully or even partly grasp right along with the fact that throughout this conversation youve been trolled.

[BillR1]

I know what the rule says Bill...the way its written gives SOs the opportunity to apply their "spin" on it which you have yet to fully or even partly grasp right along with the fact that throughout this conversation youve been trolled.

I'm not concerned with trolls...I'm flattered they think me worth their time to try and annoy.

Please tell me HOW the rule clarification is still "unclear", other than an SO not following the rulebook. How could the rule be interpreted any other way after the clarification?

BTW, an SO blatantly not following a rule could happen to any rule in nearly any sport.

[Chuck D]

....im glad to read your positions on trolls. We are on the same wave length in that respect. The foot pivot component is the problem. For simplification purposes either allow reloading while fully behind cover or plant both feet. Take all.subjectivity out of it and lessen the burden on the SOs. Easy enough to..understand ?

[BillR1]

....im glad to read your positions on trolls. We are on the same wave length in that respect. The foot pivot component is the problem. For simplification purposes either allow reloading while fully behind cover or plant both feet. Take all.subjectivity out of it and lessen the burden on the SOs. Easy enough to..understand ?

I completely agree with you that would make it SIMPLER and easier on the SOs, no question. But I do think the rule clarification helps a lot in the rule's enforcement and takes a lot of the ambiguity out.

[Chuck D]

we will agree to disagree.

[Dkrad1935]

....you are truly blind to the rulebooks shortcomings and you refuse to recognize even the most common sense questioning of what is SO cut and dry AND have been experienced by others its mind boggling and on the verge of cult status. Those of us who know better have an OBLIGATION to call it what it actually is and NOT fall prey to propaganda. You are beyond the ability to reason with .

I wish you would end your obligation some time soon. I know I know. We are all idiots because we haven't shot as many matches as you and blah blah blah. No one here is protecting the brand. But they disagree with you and find you petty and annoying....

[Chuck D]

....you are truly blind to the rulebooks shortcomings and you refuse to recognize even the most common sense questioning of what is SO cut and dry AND have been experienced by others its mind boggling and on the verge of cult status. Those of us who know better have an OBLIGATION to call it what it actually is and NOT fall prey to propaganda. You are beyond the ability to reason with .

I wish you would end your obligation some time soon. I know I know. We are all idiots because we haven't shot as many matches as you and blah blah blah. No one here is protecting the brand. But they disagree with you and find you petty and annoying....

I'm not trumpeting my accomplishments, nor am I braggging about the number of matches I've shot over the years so please stop clouding the subject at hand.

What I offer are my 1st hand experiences since the new rulebook was implemented.

My obligation will last as long as I want it to last because although I was and I remain critical of IDPA since the new rulebook was introduced, I care about the sport itself and I'd like to see it "liberated" from the people who in my opinon are taking it down the wrong path.

Feel free to ignore me....as "petty and annoying" as I am to you. Name calling usually begins when the reservior of constructive ideas and intelligent discourse runs dry Sir.

[ADulay]

Looks like it says the non pivot foot can move. So... Can I reload on the move as long as I finish my reload in one step?

For example I step to my left foot which becomes my pivot foot and then initiate and complete a reload as my right foot moves forward to take a step. The way I read this is that this would be a legal action as long as the reload has been competed before my left door comes off the ground.

Is this correct?

Nope. Read the rule.

3.9.1 If the shooter runs the firearm empty behind cover, the shooter MAY NOT ADVANCE IN THE STAGE, (move towards the next shooting position) until the weapon is deemed loaded.

I think this is what is making this such a crisis for everybody. You can't ADVANCE in the stage with all of the previously stated gyrations and pivots and slides.

You can do the "hokey-pokey" as long as one foot is planted and you don't ADVANCE IN THE STAGE.

AD

[GOF]

+ 1 to AD's clarification. Unfortunately when the "basketball pivot" analogy can into common usage (from wherever it arrived from) it clouded the issue and created different "Tribal Rules" interpretations. I guess not every SO is a NBA fan. In my area (NE FL) some SOs look at ADVANCING IN THE STAGE, and some look at foot movement... trying to figure out what "basketball pivot" means... since many are either NASCAR or NFL fans... with a few afflicted by Golfitis.... their various "interpretations" have not come to a common consensus.

[BillR1]

+ 1 to AD's clarification. Unfortunately when the "basketball pivot" analogy can into common usage (from wherever it arrived from) it clouded the issue and created different "Tribal Rules" interpretations. I guess not every SO is a NBA fan. In my area (NE FL) some SOs look at ADVANCING IN THE STAGE, and some look at foot movement... trying to figure out what "basketball pivot" means... since many are either NASCAR or NFL fans... with a few afflicted by Golfitis.... their various "interpretations" have not come to a common consensus.

The analogy came from the rules clarification fro HQ..

"When the shooter is on his/her feet, all reloads initiated behind cover must be completed

without sliding or lifting a pivot foot of the shooter’s choice. The shooter may pivot on the pivot foot as

desired, like in basketball, and the other foot may move in any manner. This rule applies to all standing

reloads initiated behind cover, no matter where in the target engagement the reload is done."

http://www.idpa.com/misc/RC/IDPARulesClarification-v2014-02-17.pdf

[GOF]

BillR1... thanks for making my point for me. ADVANCING IN THE STAGE is relatively easy to call. The shooter either ADVANCED their position within the stage as the reload was conducted, or they didn't. Black & white. The "skilled technical writers" at IDPA HQ choose to "further clarify" that simple concept by using a sports rule analogy that it is doubtful many IDPA members fully understand.... and now we're back to Tribal Rules. Well done!

I, for one, will start watching the NBA much more closely in order to gain a full understanding of precisely what I can, and can not do, during a reload behind cover.

But... darn!.... NBA is over for the year.... what is a poor B-Ball illiterate supposed to do? :roflol:

[BillR1]

BillR1... thanks for making my point for me. ADVANCING IN THE STAGE is relatively easy to call. The shooter either ADVANCED their position within the stage as the reload was conducted, or they didn't. Black & white. The "skilled technical writers" at IDPA HQ choose to "further clarify" that simple concept by using a sports rule analogy that it is doubtful many IDPA members fully understand.... and now we're back to Tribal Rules. Well done!

I, for one, will start watching the NBA much more closely in order to gain a full understanding of precisely what I can, and can not do, during a reload behind cover.

But... darn!.... NBA is over for the year.... what is a poor B-Ball illiterate supposed to do? :roflol:

LOL!! I seriously doubt there are many people who honestly don't know what a pivot in basketball looks like. That's why HQ chose to use that analogy.

I would think that "advancing in the stage" would be alot more subjective. I can see the "range lawyers" claiming "But I moved sideways during the reload. I didn't really advance". Specifying that one foot has to remain in one place takes all the guesswork out. If one foot remains in place, no PE. If both feet move, you get the 3 seconds. Black and white.

Edited June 23, 2014 by BillR1

[GOF]

Are you serious? Do you honestly think that the majority of IDPA shooters understand B-Ball rules to the point that they can determine a B-Ball legal pivot? I have no idea what you're smoking, but that cold Kool Aid you seem to have a steady supply of will sooth the throat, even though it seems to have deleterious affects on the mind.

[BillR1]

Are you serious? Do you honestly think that the majority of IDPA shooters understand B-Ball rules to the point that they can determine a B-Ball legal pivot? I have no idea what you're smoking, but that cold Kool Aid you seem to have a steady supply of will sooth the throat, even though it seems to have deleterious affects on the mind.

You're exaggerating again...why am I not surprised. You don't need an in-depth knowledge of basketball rules to understand what a foot pivot is and how it pertains in this situation. I'm quite sure the majority of IDPA shooters in your area aren't nearly as dense as you portray them to be.

[GOF]

Not exaggerating at all. I know the shooters in my area (been SOing since 2007). B-Ball fans are in a distinct minority... and in a real B-Ball game it takes a professional NBA referee to call that penalty. But, I guess in your area you have a number of NBA refs serving as SOs during the NBA off-season.

Advancing in a stage is another matter. That's simple.

I have no idea why you respond so vigorously & negatively to any comment that points out the extreme weak points in the current "new & improved" IDPA Rule Book. Do you also throw penalties for violating the numerous "etcs.?" How do you figure those out? What is an "etc." PE? Or, do you not worry about that and just call whatever penalties your "Tribe" has decided upon?

Keep your Kool Aid cold... I suspect you'll need it.

[BillR1]

....and in a real B-Ball game it takes a professional NBA referee to call that penalty. But, I guess in your area you have a number of NBA refs serving as SOs during the NBA off-season.

You're really hurting your credibility with these wild exaggerations. The pivot is the same from peewee basketball on up through the professional ranks. I have NO doubt that I could ask any 10 IDPA shooters in this area what a foot pivot looks like and they'd be able to demonstrate it. I have to wonder why you're making this simple concept appear so hard to understand. I have yet to see a shooter that even asked for a clarification when told it was "like a basketball pivot".

I'm starting to think, as Chuck said, that I'm being trolled on this one. It's OK... I'll play along.

[Jim Watson]

Not me.

I don't play basketball, I don't watch basketball, I don't study basketball, I don't do basketball in any other regard.

I have dealt with the new provision by performing a standing reload without gyrations or reference to overpaid louts bouncing a ball.

[GOF]

BilR1....You're not being trolled. Your contention that "I could ask any 10 IDPA shooters in this area what a foot pivot look like and they would be able to demonstrate it" is about as ludicrous statement as I have ever heard. You are simply being called as a one who fails to see the shortcomings of the current Rule Book, and keeps sipping the Kool Aid.

Your failure to admit those shortcomings tends to trash any truly objective opinions (if you do truly have any!) that you might utter. Some, especially those who have been in the sport for lengthy periods of time, (how long have you been a IDPA SO?) tend to find your "foaming at the mouth" defense of what many feel is indefensible to be laughable.... as are many of your responses.

BTW... you edited my previous post to your satisfaction. But, you never answered my question about "Do you throw penalties for the "etcs" in the Rule Book. And, if so,how do you define an "etc"?

Edited June 23, 2014 by GOF

[BillR1]

I have dealt with the new provision by performing a standing reload without gyrations or reference to overpaid louts bouncing a ball.

Wow...I never realized when I started playing basketball in elementary school that I was supposed to make money doing it. I missed out!! LOL

I agree with you that it's simply easier to just do a standing reload. I don't ever remember doing a pivot myself.

[BillR1]

But, you never answered my question about "Do you throw penalties for the "etcs" in the Rule Book. And, if so,how do you define an "etc"?

Nope, I've never given a PE for an "etc"...wouldn't even know where to start. I'll go look for it. Is that under Shooting Rules or Safety Rules?

[BillR1]

"1.3.2.3. The IDPA Rulebook is not intended to be an exhaustive description of all allowed and disallowed equipment and techniques. Shooter equipment and techniques should comply with the basic principles of IDPA and be valid in the context of a sport that is based on self-defense scenarios. A reasonable application of common sense and the IDPA Founding Concepts will be employed in determining whether a particular device, technique, or piece of equipment is permitted under the IDPA rules."

Most folks can handle that concept just fine...others not so much.

[GOF]

And that... is what makes the Rule Book worthless as a rules document governing the conduct of competitors in a sport. This Rule Book clearly states... up front... that it is not intended to be a 'real Rule Book"... just a 'suggestion... that anyone can apply common sense to and arrive at any conclusion they want.

Thanks for making my primary and complete point for me regarding the technical writing skill (what small amount there was) that went into crafting all of these "suggestions regarding how to call PEs". One clearly announced intention of the Tiger Teams was to eliminate the common practice of Rules being called differently in different locations -- referred to by Terry "Bubba" Burba -- as Tribal Rules.

This new Rule Book has done no such thing. In fact, it has spawned a bunch of new "Tribal Rules".

And, apparently some new Tribes. I didn't know AZ was such a hotbed of NBA activity that "I could ask any 10 shooters in my area and they would know what a pivot was". In my neck of the woods we lack that Tribal knowledge.

For an International organization, this new Rule Book is an embarrassment. Those who vigorously defend it only embarrass themselves.