MarkCO Posted March 6, 2015 Author Share Posted March 6, 2015 (edited) Patterned after 3GN?...nothing could be further from the truth! De-emphasizing the prize table instead of giving prizes that sponsors donate to competitors sponsored by their competition is going the opposite direction of 3GN. TV and media coverage for RFC has ONE purpose...to promote the sport. 3GN TV and media coverage has a VERY different purpose...to make money for the owners of 3GN. Pro class, Open and Limited...my original suggestion was just Open, but otherwise convincing arguments were made. I spoke with at least 50 people, MDs, parents whose kids shoot, mid pack shooters, 2014 match winners before the idea was made public. I apologize that I do not have to time for 170 phone calls, but I don't. FWIW, at the awards, I did ask anyone who had ideas, suggestions, about what they liked, did not like, venue, stages, format etc. to send me an email, many did. Edited March 6, 2015 by MarkCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Just eliminate the prize table. That will solve the problem . Looking forward to the Worlds. I'm sure it's going to be a great match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strip Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Dwight. To be fairly done there has to be a split between open and limited entries. So, the pay out is based on the number of entries in that division not between combined divisions. Basically I am saying limited class money needs to stay in limited class as well as the open class staying in open class. Yes, There will likely be fewer limited entries so therefore first place will pay less. but that is a decision the shooter has to make and still yet, the payback for winning in limited still stands to be a greater return than walking the prize table for a donated rifle. Also, and I have seen many times where a contestant asks if a person is shooting what class before they register so they will make a decision on whether or not to shoot that class based on who they think they can beat. So, you may see the limited pro class grow due to some pro shooters believing they stand a better chance of a check shooting Limited. Also, There will have to be be some match fees deducted for match function at least the first few years, maybe indefinitely but this should not be more than the amateur match entry. so it breaks down like this 10 entries in limited class at $200 = $125 after deduction = $1250.00 = $937 for 1st place $313 for 2nd place and that is without any added money. Again, I am only thinking out loud here because I know nothing about how it is going to be set up. But I do see some potential here and would like to know what it would take to make it work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 6, 2015 Author Share Posted March 6, 2015 Tim Norris and I just had a long conversation and I would like to point out a few things. 1. Rimfire Challenge is aimed at the 50% on down shooter, primarily new and amateur shooters. That does not mean that RFC specialists and top level shooters are unwelcome, but it does mean that the focus is not on those types of shooters. Our meetings and conversations at SHOT with industry underscored that this is what industry desires and our conversations with new and amateur shooters do as well. RFC has several new corporate cash sponsors this year which is important to help the sport grow and fund the marketing, printing and other expenses irrespective of the World match. A random draw prize table has been proven time and again to help encourage and retain new shooters, something that Michael Bane and Ken Jorgenson understood and promoted as a basic tenant of RFC. Top level shooters, and their sponsors do deserve some exposure, which is the main reason for having a Pro Class in the first place, balanced with the goal of promoting the sport and shooters on the other side of the spectrum. Growing the sport and the numbers of competition shooters is a charge of NSSF, and they have the research and data from new shooters to evaluate it. That is one of the reasons that NSSF and Ruger agreed to the shift in the administration of the sport. 2, If the prize table is your focus, then you should be shooting in a Pro class for cash. The amateur prize table will be random draw and we have asked prize sponsors not to supply any prize valued at more than $300. This will spread out the prize distribution, encourage new and novice shooters to compete as well as help our sponsors with the whole intent of the prize table...to create ROI through brand loyalty. This is reinforced by my item #1 above. 3. While I appreciate the attempts at match accounting, there are really only three people who know how the finances ended up, and we have not distributed that information, but in any event, the source of the accounting information does not appear have come from the same data Zach, Tim and myself have access to. 4. If there are 5 people in Pro-Limited and we allocated $125 of the $200 match fee, that is $625 if there are no cash sponsors, but we have some already. 5. The cup, and the title of World Champion can come from any division or class, it will just be the lowest overall time in the match. Tim and I discussed this and agreed this might help to quell some complaints and this won't affect the prize table or cash payouts in the Pro Classes. 6. At the 2015 match, when I say to let me know what you like and do not like, engage in the conversation, like many of your fellow competitors did, and we will work on improvements based on what we learn and see from the 2015 match. The one thing that Zach, Tim and myself agree on is that we will engage in constructive dialog and debate, but those that choose to attack, slander or accuse, don't expect us to even acknowledge you going forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmd Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Mark and NSSF.. Thanks for running this and other Rimfire Challenge matches. I look forward to the World Championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwight Stearns Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Everyone can see there are some serious opinions on this. Unless things are already set in stone, I would suggest that the powers that be (committee) think of leaving the world match the same for one more year. Let's make the 2015 world match the best ever. Let's see if we can break all attendance records. That would give the NSSF a chance to get input from the shooters and make changes based on that input. Input that could come from all the shooters at the 2015 championship match. It would be a great venue for that discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 8, 2015 Author Share Posted March 8, 2015 Dwight, since this discussion has started, the overwhelming response in PMs and emails to me has been in support of the changes. Please feel free to make your suggestions known by sending in a rule change form which you can get from Tim Norris. There is only one absolute, and RFC rules are no where close to that level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwight Stearns Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 (edited) Soooo I have to submit a rule change suggestion form to request you don't change the rules? oooookay! Edited March 8, 2015 by Dwight Stearns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDemory Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Well Dwight, I guess right now the existing rules are the only thing we can suggest change on. That is until someone will please post a proposal or at least the framework of one to express opinions on. I have no idea when/if that will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 8, 2015 Author Share Posted March 8, 2015 If you can not read what has been posted I can not help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDemory Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Yes, I CAN in fact read. I even remember reading that we would not attack or slander each other, thanks for that by the way. What I would like to read is some of the details of this new proposed format which could include the fee structure, and maybe an idea of the pay out in the pro class. While I understand that some of these things may be preliminary numbers, it at least is some factual information from a reliable source from which I can form an opinion and possibly a useful suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Might I suggest a new thread be started. After all this one was for the 2014 World Shoot. I'm probably going to take a week's worth of vacation for the match. My wife and I are currently planning to drive out from South Carolina. Why couldn't Fort Smith be on the right side of the state instead of the far left??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 8, 2015 Author Share Posted March 8, 2015 I will start one once we get the application process ready, should be this month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgreen Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 A very wise man once told me "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". IMO, let the "Pros" come shoot with us but on the same days and in squads with the same number of people that everybody else shoots with. I would be happy to share an order of finish prize table with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Well folks, My son shot last year and is very much looking forward to this year. I donot care alot about the pro thing as long as they leave the kids aloneand like it was last year. That was the 1st macth he has attended where the went by place for aprize table and he liked that.I understand the prizeby draw idea,but mostofthe kids and adults to were not new to the sportby the time they get to the world match. I also think if the pros want to shoot, there is a rimfire division in Steel Chalenge! We will still come thisyear sohecan shoot no matter how it changes, next year may be another story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Will and when will there be a 2015 rulle book? This would be very helpful for local and state matches. I seen a comment earlier about this not being a pass through sport, but it is and is why Ruger started the program and I thought it was also the reason NSSF has continued it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 One more thing for today: I did exspress any idea to several match folks last year. I think if RFC is going in the direction it looks like, there should be a rule change for round/hit,miss. a 5 trget stage would only allow 5 rounds, missies would be scored as penalty time. I think this would place more emphasis on marksmanship as opposed to how fast you can miss a target. This would also equate to fewer rounds required for a match and lower the overall cost. THANKS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strip Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 When the rule change forms come about, You can submit for that rule change. What you say about round count and lowering the cost is very true. However, I would not support that rule myself if for no other reason, I want beginning and newer shooters to have ample opportunity to complete a course of fire. Plus, I miss a lot myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 When the rule change forms come about, You can submit for that rule change. What you say about round count and lowering the cost is very true. However, I would not support that rule myself if for no other reason, I want beginning and newer shooters to have ample opportunity to complete a course of fire. Plus, I miss a lot myself. You must be very fast at make up shots then. Your times are quite fast . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgreen Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 MarkCO, I did talk to some of the rest of the 170 shooters, 55 of which were 17 or younger. These young people shoot state and local matches all year honing their skills to go to the World Shoot. Now you want to take away what they look forward to, getting a good prize off of the table in order of finish. I believe there were a half dozen or so in the top 20. I have shot matches and came home with a hat and so have many of these kids. The ONE time all year they can be rewarded for their skill and they could still come home with a hat. I really don't care what I bring home but the youth in this game are the ones that will keep this sport fresh and fun. In post #74 you said nothing was set in stone, please keep the match how it is for the sake of the sport or all of us will be losers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 10, 2015 Author Share Posted March 10, 2015 Dennis, there were maybe 2 or 3 juniors who got a prize valued at more than $300 in 2014. There were about 10 prizes valued at more than $300 on the table, almost all of which went to top level male competitors, most of whom will sell what they got. That is not good for sponsors nor the sport. So how is taking out those top shooters to shoot for cash and having a prize table with a significant number of prizes, none of which will be over $300 make anyone a loser? There are maybe 4 or 5 people who have said that they do not like the proposed format, and more than a dozen who have thanked me and told me this format is exactly what is needed. We will discuss it more next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgreen Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Sell what they got? I saw several of them give their prizes to young shooters, it made their day. I have given a rifle I won to a young lady and several hundred rounds of ammo to different kids. Those 4 or 5 as you state are only the ones that are willing to put themselves out there on this forum as most of them don't even know it is here. Now you go from 50 or so to a dozen. I will provide a list if you will! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 10, 2015 Author Share Posted March 10, 2015 You are mixing things together. I have had a dozen thank me for the proposed changes and talked to at least 50 about ideas. At least keep the statements in context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwight Stearns Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) 3. While I appreciate the attempts at match accounting, there are really only three people who know how the finances ended up, and we have not distributed that information, but in any event, the source of the accounting information does not appear have come from the same data Zach, Tim and myself have access to.Mark, maybe I'm blind but I went back through the posts and can't find any that attempted match accounting. Maybe you are speaking of my post where I stated I had been told that the NSSF put $10,000 into the match. I also looked for accusations and slander in the posts. I saw a lot of questions which may be upsetting but nothing that makes it to that level. This sport has developed some amazing young shooters that have worked hard to perfect their skills. Many of these young shooters are now faced with the dilemma of shooting pro and finishing out of the money or to shoot amateur and risk going to the prize table last. Prize table by order of finish is a chance for their hard earned skills to be rewarded. One other thing. I can live with the pro format. And I will come and shoot pro (limited of course) but I have real issues with the random prize table for amateur. As do 18 out of the 19 I have visited with. Edited March 10, 2015 by Dwight Stearns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgreen Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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