photoracer Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 Oh boy, now we get a Pro-Am setup. Well I can't beat BJ anyway, although my bud Mike beat him on 2 stages. Won't affect me anyway as I prefer the prize table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strip Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 I am very much looking forward to this again this year. I can't wait. I am still holding some items that were left at the range at the world match. if you are missing something please contact me. The 2015 Old Fort Rimfire Challenge will be May 2nd and 3rd . Would love to see everyone there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Posted December 26, 2014 Share Posted December 26, 2014 We went to our 1st World and my son had a blast He can't waituntil October already. He is using CHRISTmas money for rifle and pistol upgrades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strip Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Dad, bring him to our annual match in April! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I would love to bring him down. To far for us with school Friday and Monday. Will be there in October. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiselder Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Why is it necessary to add a Pro Am .... is the sport not good enough as it is? Bulletin ... this should not be considered a 'pass through' sport ... it is good as it is. Not everyone is on the way to three gun. Most of us would like to shoot the game as it is. Family, friends, and competition is what it is about. Sometimes you should leave the cake recipe alone. If we all wanted to breath fire and play three gun, we would. The 'pros' are welcome anytime ... we do not have to beg them to spend time with us. Besides, some of us can really shoot or didn't you notice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 5, 2015 Author Share Posted March 5, 2015 The reasons for a Pro-Am are exactly for the issues you have mentioned. Every other match in the country is a random draw prize table...this returns the Worlds to the same premise across the board, so you will be shooting the same game, in the manner it was originally formatted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwight Stearns Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 So are you saying the amateur side of the match will be a random prize table this year? Second, where will the cash come from that the pro shooters are shooting for? Third, have you figured out the definition of pro? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 5, 2015 Author Share Posted March 5, 2015 The Pro entry fee will be higher. The World Champion Cup will be from the Pro Category. You are shooting for cash, you shoot in the Pro Category. You are shooting for a random prize table, you shoot in the Amatuer Category. The decisions were made as a group with input from all levels of shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwight Stearns Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 So the shooter gets to choose, pro or amateur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 5, 2015 Author Share Posted March 5, 2015 Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiselder Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 So ... an amateur can't win the match. We pay higher fees to be called a "pro" .... let's see, a family of four is priced out of the market because they can no longer win from the amateur pool. The one time per year that we get to shoot for order of finish is gone .... sounds like a "World Championship" to me. Where is Tim Norris in this 'discussion' ... let's hear from NSSF. Who are these learned shooters that you have consulted? I can assure you that the game is not getting better for the shooter ... just the organization. I have only been competing for 50+ years so I probably don't really know of which I speak. BS with perfume is still BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 5, 2015 Author Share Posted March 5, 2015 Before you denigrate the sport and make accusations, I'd suggest you have your facts in hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDemory Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 So what are the facts?? It costs 200 bucks to be a pro. If you do not register as a pro you get a random draw prize at the table instead of order of finish. The amount of prize $ paid out will be determined by the # of "pro" shooter entries or is there a guaranteed/set minimum? Who are the "top level" shooters you consulted on this, let's have some names. Who gets to make these decisions? Is you alone, the NSSF Board or who? Lets have those names too. And yes Tim Norris, by all means if you are supporting this speak up man!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 6, 2015 Author Share Posted March 6, 2015 Not even worth responding to you if you are willing to make accusations without knowing the facts. That is not in keeping with the principles of this sport in any manner. Dwight, as always, thank you for your candor and thoughts via PM, where they belong. If you have more comments, feel free to continue our conversation via PM and I make sure the other people know your thoughts as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slee Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 "The NSSF Rimfire Challenge is a .22 rifle and pistol program created to introduce new people to the shooting sports and provide a pathway to shooting competition. The NSSF Rimfire Challenge can provide individuals or families with a fun and exciting first-time shooting experience. Shooting ranges can utilize the concept as a Second Round component to NSSF's First Shots program. " ... Just sayin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDemory Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 I am asking if these are the facts or not?? I am sorry if that offends you. You ask others to get the facts and that is what I am trying to do!! If you do not have them who does please?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NelsonM Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 From what I am seeing on this thread is that the shooters have questions. I also see "you might want to know the facts". Where are the facts? Who are the people involved? These are questions that have yet to be answered. So Please speak up MarkCo and post these links to educate everyone. If you know you should be able to easily do this. Here is one for you and I am not even involved YET : http://www.nssf.org/rimfire/#&panel1-5 Look for what Slee just posted. Looks like word for word. Hmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted March 6, 2015 Author Share Posted March 6, 2015 NelsonM, the facts have been laid out. Read post 70 for instance. There are no "links". I am the Match Director for the World Match and the decisions regarding format, fees, location, etc. have always been a group effort of several parties. The only thing I do without input and endorsement is the stage design. There will always be people who to not like the format, however, slee posted the intent of the sport, which some people who have specialized in RFC may not particularly like, but that IS the intent and mission of this sport. The shooters on this thread who have made false accusations know exactly how to get ahold of every person who has input regarding the world match, but have chosen another method. That is their choice, but it is my choice to ignore slander and false accusations. Furthermore, the participants on whom this sport is focused are not members of BEnos and certainly have not been shooting for 50 years, more like 5 days or 5 months. NSSF is industry funded and industry directed. This sport is seen by those who created it, and those who continue to fund and run it, as a sport to introduce American's at large to a low barrier to entry competitive sport. In that vein, NSSF has proven to have great vision and leadership, even if that direction is in conflict with the desires of a person whose shooting focus has been RFC for many years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slee Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Exactly MarkCO... And that's why the word "Pro" seems out of place in this sport. Let's face it, this is an amateur sport and an amateur should have the opportunity to go for the title. Those that have specialized in RFC should know this better than most. If being a professional in the shooting sports is your goal, then all the power to you! However, maybe the RFC is not the right venue to focus ALL of your time and effort. I mean no disrespect as I know there is ALOT of talent out there, but being a pro in a sport that is designed for beginners may not have the value they are hoping for. That being said, the random prize tables throughout the season are GREAT! I love watching that 9 yr. old, who finished close to the bottom, get to walk up to the table and grab that new rifle! But, the Worlds is the big one where the shooters get to use what they've learned throughout the season and get rewarded based on their performance. This is just my opinion, but I think it's been great the way you all have been doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwight Stearns Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Exactly MarkCO... And that's why the word "Pro" seems out of place in this sport. Let's face it, this is an amateur sport and an amateur should have the opportunity to go for the title. Those that have specialized in RFC should know this better than most. If being a professional in the shooting sports is your goal, then all the power to you! However, maybe the RFC is not the right venue to focus ALL of your time and effort. I mean no disrespect as I know there is ALOT of talent out there, but being a pro in a sport that is designed for beginners may not have the value they are hoping for. That being said, the random prize tables throughout the season are GREAT! I love watching that 9 yr. old, who finished close to the bottom, get to walk up to the table and grab that new rifle! But, the Worlds is the big one where the shooters get to use what they've learned throughout the season and get rewarded based on their performance. This is just my opinion, but I think it's been great the way you all have been doing it. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NelsonM Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 (edited) ^^^^^^ +2 ^^^^^ Edited March 6, 2015 by NelsonM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDemory Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Ok MarkCO, I do not know how I can ask any other/more respectfully way. Are the fees and match structure listed in the above posts true? Who are the people who have input into this decision. Is it set in stone for 2015 or not? I am not trying to slander you, but I feel these are legitimate questions from a competitor that any match director should expect and be able to answer. I also feel I have the right to my own opinions and the freedom to express those opinions, just as I feel you are entitled to yours irregardless if they are the same or not.. I would however like to know and understand the facts of the matter before I formulate and express my opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strip Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 (edited) Gentleman, I think before we all go half cocked we really need to learn the particulars of the situation. The pro's of what a pro am may do and the cons. We need to know the scope of why it may be beneficial to all of us and why it may be harmful. I agree, the guys who put in the time all year long deserve a reward for performance at the end of the year. But, what if.... instead of first place paying a new 10-22 it paid several thousand dollars? What type of factory sponsored shooters and factory sponsorship's might this bring into the sport. Bring the big names and in comes the TV coverage. then the sport will explode. Or people can be so off put by the idea that their negativity deters any opportunity of real growth. I do not know the particulars of this pro am concept, so I reserve my opinions until I hear the details, but, I am keeping an open mind about it until I do know the details and I humbly ask you all to do the same. No one wants to hurt this sport. No One wants to change the scope of the sport, but we all want it to grow and to continue to bring new shooters into shooting competitions. This sport as with any shooting sport is dominated by 10% of the shooters. However, its the other 90% that make the sport (The work that the 10% does to promote this sport is amazing, I am not discounting that) The other 90% spend the money and time to come to the World match knowing that they stand no chance of coming home with a top Prize. They do it because they want to be a part of it including shooting with the big names in the game. I know the big names in this game can compete with the best speed shooting names in the world, so lets do what it takes to get them in this game and get our top shooters the notoriety they deserve. I have not been asked but here is what I would suggest for what the pro class should be. (If It is done) $200.00 entry fee 100% of the fee gets paid back in pro class awards. (The first few years the cost of the amateur entry will be retained to cover match expenses) Work hard to find added money as well. Pay 1 place for every 5 entries in each Division (Limited or open) or 1-7 = 1 place 7-12 = 2 places add 1 place every 6 after that. definition of a Pro. Required to be Pro is. Top 3 finisher in any state match (Maybe upgrade this to regional someday by selecting a few of the top performing state matches as regional matches) and top 3 finisher of any past world championship. Any other shooter may elect to go pro, But sponsored shooters, are encouraged to go Pro. Anyway, these are just my thoughts and ideas. I have no authority to implement any such plan, it's just what I think would make the Pro Class worth while. So how can the NSSF make a Pro Class work? or why should they not? Edited March 6, 2015 by Strip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwight Stearns Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Thanks for that input Strip. My only disagreements with your proposal is the NSSF can't afford to put all the pro entry fees into the pot. Here is why. Last year there were 170(+-) entries at let's call it $80.00 each. (Can't remember the exact entry fee) that equals $13,600. If you remove say 50 shooters shooting pro, that removes $4000.00 from the match operations funds. I'm told that the match operated in the red last year. Don't know how much but I'm sure they don't want to add another for grand to that debt. I also believe that the eventual goal is to have a rimfire sport patterned after 3 Gun Nation. This would be a lofty goal but not in keeping with the purpose of the sport as we know it. I shoot limited division in rimfire challenge. Now limited is kind of the red headed step child of the sport. (My apologies to all you red headed step children) If you have 50 pros, you might have 10 limited pros. Now you have the open pro winning 4 times more than the limited pro or as in 3GN there will only be one division, open. There is so much that should have been put out to the shooters instead of just saying it will be a pro/am format and then letting it stew for a couple months. I also think it should have been discussed with the shooters at the last world match and received the input of the people that pay the entry fees. Stay safe buddy. Dwight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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