The sequence of calling a shot

[Jeeper]

I dont know what got me onto this thought the other day but here goes:

What is the real order in whcih you call the shot. For example the second shot on a target.

Is it:

Shot

See acceptable sight picture

Pull trigger

My question arise from a pure standpoint of numbers (I know eeeeeewww math)

Lets say your gun cycles in .07 seconds(I think that is about average) and your reaction time is about .2 seconds. How could you ever pull a .15 split where you called the shot. It seems to be a mathmatical impossibility.

It shot calling more of a function of correctly knowing the timing of your gun where you dont really call the shot but call a miss after you broke a shot? Or does shot calling somehow spead your reaction time up into the blazing fast .04-.1 range.

My hypothesis is that this might be the correct order:

Shot

Preparing for next shot and gun recoiling

Shooting while sight picture is coming down into play

Calling miss after shot is fired.

I have read most of the "calling the shot" threads here but maybe I missed the one that talked in term of actual numbers for reaction time and such.

(Sorry that I am thinking crazy..It is because I am just finishing this semesters law school finals and my brain is melted. )

[waktasz]

Interesting thread. I think that most guns cycle in about half of the time you are hypothesizing though.

[Jeeper]

Interesting thread.  I think that most guns cycle in about half of the time you are hypothesizing though.

lI just got that number from my timer. It pickes up a .05-.07 time every now and then and I always though it was the cycling rate of the gun.

[shred]

Calling the shot at high speed is not a linear process for me.

As always, you need to call where the shot went just after you fire it, but since you can watch the gun cycling (the sight lifting and coming back), you are perfectly capable of seeing where it went fast enough. It's just that sometimes you may not recognize it until later.

Have you ever fired a shot and thought "why did I just do that? The sights were nowhere near the target?" Your reaction was behind the shooting.

Done right, it's a continuous subconscious watching-and-responding throughout the shooting process as opposed to a conscious action-comparison-reaction mode.

[blackdragon]

shred,

I wish I had a nickle for every time I did "THAT"

Ivan

[Jake Di Vita]

The process of calling the shot....

1. Align the sights to the place that you want to shoot.

2. Pull the trigger until the shot goes off.

3. KNOW where the sight was when it was in the notch

4. Watch the front sight lift out of the notch.

5. See the sight return to followthrough.

6. Repeat as necessary.

[kdj]

Pure reaction time doesn't seem relevant since it's not a surprize event, right?

Kevin

[Jeeper]

Pure reaction time doesn't seem relevant since it's not a surprize event, right?

Kevin

thats part of my question

[benos]

I think you're way off the path if you try to understand calling in relationship to time.

The key word in calling is "recognition." At what instant (compared to the total process of locating the target, pointing the gun at the target, and holding it there unitl it fires) you realize, by way of keeping your eyes open and seeing the relationship of the front and rear sight to the target at the instant the gun fires, if the shot is acceptable or not, is hard to say specifically, and IMHO not even worth thinking about. What is important is if you can pull anything sensible out of that.

[Flexmoney]

Jeeper,

I too would think that the limiting factor here is what you think you know.

You are trying to box calling the shot into something else that you understand (better)...reaction time (and cycle time). Those, apparently, are NOT the factors.

So, thinking of them as such limits you.

Being aware is not reactive. And, perhaps awareness could even be a limit?

[vincent]

Calling the shot is more about the speed of visual recognition. Therefore the times you should be looking for are more like the speed at which the brain can visually recognize a familiar shape. One can surely see and recognize say the letter "A" written on a page far faster than 0.2 seconds.

[Skywalker]

Jeeper,

since I'm not able to call my shots throughout an entire match, take my words for what they are: notes from a student on this topic.

The basic is that firing a shot (I mean pulling the trigger) should not be a conscious action: it should be the automatic reflex triggered by your vision of the sights aligned on the target spot you're aiming at. This rules out your "trigger reaction time": you don't really realize it's time to pull the trigger, there is no such delay, you see, you shoot.

Now, you really have to know how your vision works in high speed shooting: I know mine actually works like a sort of stroboscopic sequence of frames. I don't get a continuous movie of my actions: maybe this is because I'm still learning to pay (mindless) attention to my vision, or maybe because it all happens at such fast pace that my memory only recollects some frames of the whole movie, I really don't know.

Anyway, whenever I am able to call my shots, the process goes like this: the sights are aligned on the target, this "triggers" the pulling of the trigger until the shot breaks, then I get a freezed frame from my vision telling me where the gun was aimed at the moment the bullet left the barrel.

For me, the process of calling the shot ends there.

BUT, now the thoughest part of the shooting comes into play: I'm still learning to automatically react to the calling process results.

I mean, sometimes, when I'm really attuned, I don't need to consciously tell myself "...I have called the shot a mike, fire another one..." or "...the sights are back on the target, time to fire the second shot...", it happens by itself, and since my splits suck, it will usually take me some .20/.25 s to make up a bad shot.

When I'm not able to do that (shooting at "unconscious" level), I usually end up consciously ignoring what my vision tells me, and the results are usually a couple of poor hits (or even a mike) per stage.

But, definitely, there is no reaction time in the whole shooting process: it implies some sort of conscious thought sneaking into your shooting, and that will always slow you down, not to mention all of the other negative aspects of consciously thinking while shooting that BE pointed out in his book.

[Paladin]

..for this subprocess if you take care of the beginning (keep gun on target as you fire the shot) and the end (front sight resettle in notch) then the middle will take care of itself!! Do not focus on calling the shot, you should just observe the happening..if you focus on it you will disrupt your followthrough..

My most awesome shooting has occurred when the gun didn't seem to move at all when fired, not because it didn't but because platform and followthrough where so impeccable that the return was instanteous and consistent ..

[dajarrel]

Our minds can function so much faster than we can possibly comprehend. We limit ourselves by "thinking" and "seeing." When we allow ourselves to run in automatic after training our mind in what we require from it is when we are the fastest and most accurate. I think the emphasis here is training and repetition.

Have you ever started a stage and from the time you got the beep until the last shot is fired you don't really recall looking at sights or thinking about your trigger? It just seems that the gun is an extention of your arm and it is as natural as can be just to point at a target and hear the shot go off. The whole process just flows.

This is a place where I seldom find myself, but is my goal when shooting.

There is also another concept (seeing as we are conceptualizing this morning) of what I have heard called "Slow Time" This is where you are actually aware of everything that is going on, but because it is going on at the sub-concious level, everything seems to slow down. It seems that you have all the time in the world when events are really moving on.

I have to be careful about that "slow time" thing. I thought I was in it the other day and actually took about 45 seconds to shoot a 15 second speed shoot>

I'm not a phychiatrist but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express one night.

dj

[MikeFoley]

I too am a student of this process, but feel like it has been happening before I knew what to call it. Some of my best stages I never recall any of the details between the beep and the last shot. Before I knew about shot calling, I often said "I don't recall ever seeing the sights". Obviously I did, but it was so brief and confident, that I moved on through the course until I recognized the last target or something. Shot calling changes a great deal for me at longer distances. At say 40-50 yards, I still have to see and think fundamentally. My thoughts, FWIW, and I am only an A shooter, are:

Learn to shoot accurately, regardless of speed.

Train your eyes for quick movement and perception.

Work on shooting pairs on a target knowing where the gun was when the shot broke. Do this from different distances.

Work on transition speeds and when you can shoot the next shot.

Once you have this on auto-pilot(and it is a diminshing skill if you don't use it), then you can focus on planning and moving and just let the shooting happen as you have trained. Keep shooting as much as possible(and non-firing drills), and don't get sloppy in practice. Repetition makes this much more automatic. Any thoughts? Like I said, I am still a student of the process.

[Skywalker]

There is also another concept (seeing as we are conceptualizing this morning) of what I have heard called "Slow Time" This is where you are actually aware of everything that is going on, but because it is going on at the sub-concious level, everything seems to slow down. It seems that you have all the time in the world when events are really moving on.

That's what Mas Ayoob calls tachipsychia (sp?): high adrenaline levels in your blood cause your perception of the world to be in slow motion, but in reality it's going on at the same usual speed, it's your functioning that raises to a higher speed level.

[shred]

I'm not sure that's the entire reason for it in an IPSC stage. I rather think that it comes from paying attention to only what's important.

Here's my favorite example: Jump in a car and immediately punch it up to 100mph (or whatever your local maximum limit is). Everything looks like it's flying by and all sorts of stuff is happening and you're barely in control. But instead if you gradually speed up over time, you focus in on only what's important and it becomes much more manageable. With experience, getting into the second mode becomes quicker and easier.

[mcoliver]

Calling the shot is more about the speed of visual recognition. Therefore the times you should be looking for are more like the speed at which the brain can visually recognize a familiar shape. One can surely see and recognize say the letter "A" written on a page far faster than 0.2 seconds.

Interesting.

So the more practice you get shooting and understanding the sight picture (how it looked and where the bullet went) the better and faster you get at recognizing a correctly called shot (and building up your "shooting alphabet of sight pictures"). Yet the important part is the understanding the sight picture. Because if you don't, you could be shooting lots without actually gaining anything.

[short_round]

Yet the important part is the understanding the sight picture.  Because if you don't, you could be shooting lots without actually gaining anything.

I think recognizing is the first step and understanding it is a little more advanced. Especially for iron sights where there is a tolerance in the relationship between the target, front sight, and rear sight that can still be a good shot. I have called shots incorrectly and made up shots that were not necessary. At those times I have to rewind to the picture of the shot I thought was bad and re-label it as acceptable. I'm still in the process of compiling this library.

Maybe Vince's example is a good one. First we learn the letters, then we recognize the letters without thinking, later we learn that the letters can be put into words, finally we recognize words without thinking. Maybe we do this with our called shots too.

I don't really see a sequence in it ... The activities of sight alignment and trigger control are continuous and calling the shot is the recognition of the relationship of all these things to each other at an instantaneous moment in time - when the shot breaks.

Once you are able to "see" what you do with it is another story.