Why is 45 acp the only caliber you can shoot in CDP?

[RickB]

10mm and .400 Corbon were both CDP legal, back in the day. "The story", fifteen years ago, was that some famous shooter, the name changes depending who's telling the story, convinced Bill Wilson that .40" guns would chase .45 from the sport if allowed to stay in CDP.

Nobody was shooting .40 out of a 1911 (real, single stack 1911) at that time, and hardly anyone was shooting 10mm either, but someone argued convincingly that everyone would abandon .45, so every other round was kicked out.

It seems that raising the power factor to 190 for CDP would have been easier to do, and makes a lot more sense than me having to shoot my 8-shot, 225pf 10mm in ESP.

[v1911]

I think in today's shooting economics, it could be argued that allowing .40 in CDP would cause a huge shift from .45 shooters.

The irony is, the swing would probably come from USPSA shooters looking to get more trigger time.

[GmanCdp]

yes that is correct, plus the 40 @ 165pf has a different kick/pulse to it and nobody that has a 40 will run 165pf at a monthly match around here.. Or so that I have noticed.

So your saying if .40 was let in CDP it would make the .45 extinct in the division?

I just don't see it. .45 is still more popular is SS in USPSA.

Corey,nothing was said about SS... The shooters would switch over and shoot all the Glocks and XD(m)'s 40S&W in CDP.. CDP as you know is not only for a single stack gun..

[steel1212]

Ok so if TS not to protect the .45 1911 the founder if the .45 caliber then why. If so many people shoot plastic any way then it might grow the division.

[glocklover]

Well, the only explaination that I have heard so far that makes any sence is that 40 cal is not allowed in CDP is because 40 would take over and make the 45 obsolete.

I see no other reason.

[Steve Koski]

Baby jesus cries when a 1911 is made in .40.

[steel1212]

Baby jesus cries when a 1911 is made in .40.

True but the father smiles and the holy ghost laughs.

[Dkrad1935]

I work at a large retail company in Arkansas and I can tell you that 40 cal sales are much more than 2% of pistol ammo sales.

[19852]

I would like to make all the divisions governed by PF, even CDP. But that's me. My take on it is this; if the .40 were allowed the Glock 35 would rule CDP.

Right now I don't shoot CDP, don't own a .45 pistol. Most often you'll find me in SSR or SSP.

[BillR1]

Honest questions here, so don't flame me too bad...

Why do so many think that the .40 would take over CDP if allowed in there? What makes a .40 "better" than the .45 using the same PF and magazine restrictions?

I understand it's probably slightly cheaper to reload for. The .45 shoots heavier bullets, so it should have less recoil at the same PF.

Is it simply because so many folks in the other game have SS .40s that they want to use in a different game, or is there actually an advantage to the .40 that I'm not seeing?

Fill me in please...

[Dkrad1935]

I don't know that it would take over but a striker fired 45 might be quicker without having to manipulate the safety?

Also it may increase pressure to change the capacity restriction. I think the capacity restriction is what protects the Wilson's of the world. More so than the caliber

[BillR1]

I don't know that it would take over but a striker fired 45 might be quicker without having to manipulate the safety?

Also it may increase pressure to change the capacity restriction. I think the capacity restriction is what protects the Wilson's of the world. More so than the caliber

I already shoot a striker-fired gun in CDP with no manual safety. That's already legal.

[steel1212]

I don't see it taking over the .45 in CDP. you will get some USPSA shooters that would be able to shoot their Idpa legal STI eagles in .40 and Some SS shooters shooting .40. I don't think you'll have a lot of real CDP True blue CDP guys switch to .40. If anything i think it would grow the division.

I just prefer the recoil impulse of the 40 over 45

Edited February 28, 2014 by steel1212

[v1911]

Here's my question. Why take your plastic fantastic from SSP/ESP and move it into CDP? I ask because I can only assume most .40s sold in this nation probably aren't of the 1911 lineage.

There wouldn't be any overall standings benefit in reducing your capacity and increasing your PF.

[BillR1]

Here's my question. Why take your plastic fantastic from SSP/ESP and move it into CDP? I ask because I can only assume most .40s sold in this nation probably aren't of the 1911 lineage.

There wouldn't be any overall standings benefit in reducing your capacity and increasing your PF.

sorry...misunderstood the question.

Edited February 28, 2014 by BillR1

[steel1212]

Here's my question. Why take your plastic fantastic from SSP/ESP and move it into CDP? I ask because I can only assume most .40s sold in this nation probably aren't of the 1911 lineage.

There wouldn't be any overall standings benefit in reducing your capacity and increasing your PF.

Most of the .45 ammo shot in CDP isn't factory either. Yet 40 ammo would drop right in.

[Dkrad1935]

Yeah I don't think letting 40 in would take over 1911's. But if it grew the division enough, the 1911 guys would become a smaller percent of the base.

At some point it would be hard to argue the 8+1 round limit if that happened

I'm fine the way it is really. But they could have auto and revolver minor and major for each plus an open division.

In the auto I wouldn't make a 1911 capacity concession. But you could encourage stages that avoided round counts that discriminate. Like 10, 11 and 18 round stages???

[kdmoore]

I can't speak to actual facts and reasons, I'd guess that the Wilson's and the company they kept are the only ones.

But my perception is this:

These reasons started because of how things used to be in the average (non competition shooters) gun owners world. IDPA is geared more toward these new and average shooters and most of their new members come from this world. I'd suggest that USPSA figured that out and was one reason the production division was created (there were other reasons as well ... i.e. encourage cross over from IDPA minded shooters). Because IDPA doesn't focus heavily on the advanced shooters who think nothing of dropping cash into gear they've kept a "no equipment race" mentality. No equipment race means that shooters who are joining the sport are fine with losing to better talent, but they hate to think that better equipment might help a shooter of equal talent win ... i.e. if they want to compete against their peers they may have to pay to play.

I also think that back in the day (mid 90's) most of your average gun owners had something that would be competitive in SSP or ESP (glock, S&W, ruger, BHP ... all in 9mm) but some percentage had a .38 revolver or a 1911 in 45 caliber as their only gun. So, to woo these gun owners IDPA created and protected the CDP and SSR divisions. To protect the perception of new shooters IDPA has protected the idea in a POTENTIAL shooters mind that he has a gun sitting around that would do well in the game. So, we split off the ESR ... and so we have prevented the .40 from joining the CDP ranks. Maybe the perception is a .40 pistol will shoot softer with store bought (i.e. white box) ammo. Or, a .40 2011/1911 could be construed as a custom gun the 1911 owner would not be competitive with ...

These are just ideas, but I do think sometimes we miss the understanding that thinking thru the eyes of a potential shooter gives. And these shooters seem to be the life force of the IDPA sport.

To me IDPA is potentially missing the boat on this. The numbers of average gun owners who ONLY have a .38 or a .45/1911 have certainly shrank over the years. There is no home that favors a .40 cal gun shot with store bought ammo ....

USPSA may have been catering to those who only owned a 9mm and basic gear when they created the production division. I'd venture a guess that they ended up with shooters who may otherwise have joined IDPA instead? IDPA should create a .40 cal friendly division for the same reason that SSR and CDP were created/protected. I'm sure the number of gun owners who don't compete (potential new competitors) who only own a .40 is growing.

I guess my main point is the decision to keep 1911's a .45 has less to do about power factors and more about the perception of a potential competitor ... and that this is an unsupported opinion.

Lastly, for those who think it's more about Bill's business decisions ... bunk! He could ramp up .40 cal production (in 1911) and then allow them in and see some bump in gun sales. In "traditional" 1911 sales he has like a billion competitors ... if he allowed .40 into CDP his market share would likely increase, although I doubt it's enough to move the needle very far.

Adding one more thing .... if you don't believe IDPA highly values new blood, go back and look at their decisions re: multigun. Very unpopular with the established shooting community because so much gear was throttled back ... aimed at what non competitors would be likely to have already, or be able to borrow from a friend (lower capacity rifles and shotguns, no "fancy gear").

Edited February 28, 2014 by kdmoore

[glocklover]

Single action trigger vs double action trigger, I would understand if there was a rule for on or the other in the division. In my humble opinion there is an advantage with a single action trigger. However, there is no restrictions between the two. 40 vs 45 with a power factor for both at 165, I see no competative advantage one way or the other.

[IHAVEGAS]

IDPA should create a .40 cal friendly division for the same reason that SSR and CDP were created/protected. I'm sure the number of gun owners who don't compete (potential new competitors) who only own a .40 is growing.

I don't understand this. I shoot 40 in esp & ssp & there are always other folks doing the same thing, you could say that there is a recoil disadvantage if you do not reload, but you can say the exact same thing about shooting 45's (for example, winchester white box comes in at 190 + power factor depending on the gun).

Why the fuss? Grab the gun, enter where it fits, have fun. Don't worry be happy.

[Bob Hostetter]

I would be OK with the 40cal being made legal for CDP, might switch from my single stack 45 to a STI in 40 which I already own but only maybe. I would however like to see any 45cal cartridge allowed such as 45GAP or 45LC.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Bob Hostetter

[steel1212]

IDPA should create a .40 cal friendly division for the same reason that SSR and CDP were created/protected. I'm sure the number of gun owners who don't compete (potential new competitors) who only own a .40 is growing.

I don't understand this. I shoot 40 in esp & ssp & there are always other folks doing the same thing, you could say that there is a recoil disadvantage if you do not reload, but you can say the exact same thing about shooting 45's (for example, winchester white box comes in at 190 + power factor depending on the gun).

Why the fuss? Grab the gun, enter where it fits, have fun. Don't worry be happy.

What do you think we are doing now? Like I have said a 100 times nobody can provide a good logical reason why not to let .40 in.

Oh and going from a 25 PF change to a 40pf change is a bit different.

[IHAVEGAS]

IDPA should create a .40 cal friendly division for the same reason that SSR and CDP were created/protected. I'm sure the number of gun owners who don't compete (potential new competitors) who only own a .40 is growing.

I don't understand this. I shoot 40 in esp & ssp & there are always other folks doing the same thing, you could say that there is a recoil disadvantage if you do not reload, but you can say the exact same thing about shooting 45's (for example, winchester white box comes in at 190 + power factor depending on the gun).

Why the fuss? Grab the gun, enter where it fits, have fun. Don't worry be happy.

What do you think we are doing now? Like I have said a 100 times nobody can provide a good logical reason why not to let .40 in.

Oh and going from a 25 PF change to a 40pf change is a bit different.

How come there is a single stack only division in USPSA? The double stack 2011's & etc are no better or worse as long as you keep to the same round count. How come sometimes the monopoly card says you have to go straight to jail and you can't even collect your $200? Seems like overkill. How come poker does not give any consideration for having 5 or even 7 cards all of the same color? Point being, games iz games and all of the rules will never make sense to all of the people. Why I'm at it I never will understand why the teller bags the gallon of o.j. with nary a query but always wants to know my preferred means of milk transport.

[steel1212]

The SS only division is not limited to caliber or brand just type of gun like production or revo.

As for the rest of it I get your point and actually completely agree. It's a game with rules that we play by. But there needs to be reasons to those rules I think.

[GmanCdp]

The SS only division is not limited to caliber or brand just type of gun like production or revo.

As for the rest of it I get your point and actually completely agree. It's a game with rules that we play by. But there needs to be reasons to those rules I think.

UNTIL YOU FIGURE IT OUT.. JUST ROCK ON...

Metal health will drive you mad...