Mark Perez Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 Joe D brought up this subject in the "improve IDPA" thread - I think it deserves it's own discussion/debate. I did a find "cover" search in the rules page and found these : Course of Fire: When cover is available, it MUST be used both when shooting and reloading. Course Design Rationale: Requirements like the use of cover, reloading behind cover.. ..Make the shooter stay behind the cover area while actually shooting or reloading.... .. If any forms of cover or props that represent cover are used as part of the stage, then the contestant must use cover. Tactical reloads, or even slide-lock reloads, must be accomplished behind cover if available. Rule 19. PROPER USE OF COVER: If cover is available, the shooter must use it! More than 50% of the shooter’s upper torso must be behind cover while engaging threat targets and/or reloading. If the shooter is shooting from low cover, one knee must be on the ground while shooting. When using vertical cover such as a wall/barricade, 100% of the shooter’s legs/feet must be behind cover while engaging threat targets and/or reloading...All reloads must be executed behind cover, if cover is available, and must be completed before leaving cover Technically , having more than 50% of your body behind cover to reload is still using cover. I think IDPA did this on purpose , given the background of Walt Rauch and Hackathorn and many training experts who suggest that a person shouldn't lose sight of his opponent during a reload -- it kind of makes sense. Otherwise , it would have been just as easy to read "All reloads will be performed with the shooter totally behind cover , when available." Many SO's mistakenly give out PE's if the shooter isn't totally behind cover while reloading , even though R19 clearly states a shooter only needs more than 50% of the upper torso be behind cover ( or less than 50% may be exposed to targets , in other terms ). This is just my opinion - but in the pre-rules section of the LGB , there is so much discussion on using cover , I think it overwhelms the "more than 50%" clause above. What do you guys think ? Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 50% rule certainly does apply when reloading, you odn't have to duck behind cover fully. Some So's need to read that. FWIW, there is no denying some SO's still do this (and should not) but many of the stories I've heard about getting dinged for not going 100% behind cover took place under the red book which didn't have the same language pertaining to use of cover. Some of the shooters just haven's shot IDPA since the green book. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Round_Gun_Shooter Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 I think the rule is a bad one. Reason: If I am shooting on the move and run dry, I can not start a reload without First arriving at the cover location. I should be allowed to reload while moving to cover. With only six rounds, I need all the time to reload I can get Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 This discussion has been brought up before. If you shoot a major match and reload with 50% cover, you will get dinged for it. It's that whole spirit of IDPA crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted December 12, 2004 Share Posted December 12, 2004 This discussion has been brought up before. If you shoot a major match and reload with 50% cover, you will get dinged for it. It's that whole spirit of IDPA crap. BULL! Maybe at the odd major match but definitely not all of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 If you do get dinged then it is time to get the Match Director involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kraut Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Sure it makes sense not to loose visual contact on Your opponent during Your relaod. But for the price of offering yourself as target? In real life I would prefer to take all cover available during reload. And that´s what IPDPA want´s to train/practice for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 I am going to have to find a way to have "IDPA is a GAME" pop up when people refer to it as training or practice. -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 Several of the shooters in my squad (including me) at a regional match were told that they needed to be 100% behind cover to reload. None of us were dinged but that was because of the RO said “I’m being nice and just warning you”. We all questioned the notion and asked for a rulebook citation. He didn’t remember what the rule was but said “it’s in there”. Funny that this is one of those things that is clear as a bell in the rule book, yet here was someone making stuff up as he went along. "More than 50% of the shooter’s upper torso must be behind cover while engaging threat targets and/or reloading." geezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kraut Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 people refer to it as training or practice-ld For me it is. I see no need for another game like IPSC/USPSA/Bianchi/Second Chance/CAS or whatever, there is enough already here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted December 13, 2004 Share Posted December 13, 2004 I am going to have to find a way to have "IDPA is a GAME" pop up when people refer to it as training or practice.-ld or maybe a HUGE smiley with the eye roll..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted December 14, 2004 Author Share Posted December 14, 2004 Sure it makes sense not to loose visual contact on Your opponent during Your relaod. But for the price of offering yourself as target? In real life I would prefer to take all cover available during reload. And that´s what IPDPA want´s to train/practice for. Kraut , What you do in the real world is your business . In IDPA you wouldn't incur a PE for reloading completely behind cover - as well , you shouldn't incur a PE for exposing less than 50% of the upper torso either. The topic under discussion should not be mistaken for RW conditions , but in the context of a sporting event. Until that day Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 I hate to even use the term "Real World" when discussing shooting games. However, at my Gunsite 250 class, taught by 3 LEOs, they taught us not to peek in and out from behind cover. They cited an officer who was killed after he peeked out from behind cover after exchanging fire a couple of times with the bad guy. Basically the bad guy set up, and the next time the officer stuck his head out, he got nailed. They taught us to "own the hallway", and once you have cleared an area of threats, don't hide and have to clear the same area all over again. Wait for the other dumb bastard to play peekaboo, and nail him. This would be the reason to do your reloads partially exposed, (as quick as humanly possible, not tactical whactical BS) so as to keep an eye on the danger zone. Another area where IDPA "training" may run counter to what some professionals teach. IDPA also trains you to get just behind cover, just behind the edge of the wall, so you don't have to go far to get back to the shooting. But as my Drill Sargeant taught me so long ago, concealment ain't cover. Sheetrock and hollow core doors don't provide much protection from small arms fire. In the "real world" you might consider taking a few steps back from a corner to reload in case the bad guy decides to shoot through the walls. IDPA is a game. It's only good if it teaches you to shoot better. Get your tactical instruction from Uncle Sam, or a good shooting school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sac Law Man Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Whether some see IDPA as training for real life is not the issue. IDPA is a game whose purpose is to allow a shooter to compete, their goal being shooting a scenario in the fastest time possible with the least amount of points down, all the while using basic fundamentals. Since IDPA is a game and therefore the rule says while reloading, 50% of your body must be behind cover, than thats the rule, and a shooter should not be penalizied for doing so. The great thing about IDPA is, if you want to be totally behind cover while reloading, then by all means do so. Remember, in real life, corners are not our friends. you want to stay away from corners, thats where slicing the pie really comes in. If you really work the corners correctly, you can be positioned where the bad guy cant see you, but you can see him. Therefore you can reload from cover, but still keep your eye on the bad guy. I think its a good rule, its simple, one that is easy to judge and enforce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melman_1 Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 I had the same complaint about that rule on Glock Talk. I think it was Mark P. that told me on there that the reasons the SO's do that was because thats what the rule was in the little redbook (the predecessor to the LGB). Having to be 100% behind cover. But the redbook was before my IDPA time. I have asked this questions to SO's before but they say if you do it you get a PE. I hope the next IDPA rulebook that's scheduled for release in the year 2020 addresses that. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayonaise Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 It's an SO and MD training issue. Which is why I feel the first priority for HQ should be to get the SO Instructor's training syllabus in order ASAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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