38 Short Colt, 158/160gr bullet, Tightgroup. Will it work, where to s

[pskys2]

pskys2 -

did you notice alot of heat with using titegroup on your cylinder?

Didn't have enough on hand to do more than 3 or 400, it didn't show up at less than 50 rounds in practice though.

[Jimwax]

I shoot TG all the time in 38 Special and mids and heat has never really been an issue.

[mcb]

So yesterday's match was just three stages. The first stage was 18rds, second stage was 20rds. The third stage was a new starting position for a combined stage shooting all available targets. It was a, not strictly legal, 38rd stage. Managed to shoot it in just over 32 seconds. 38 rds of 3.3gr Titegroup under a 158gr Berry's definitely heated up the 627 cylinder. It was not hot enough to burn you outright but you would not have wanted to hold onto the cylinder for any length of time.

[pskys2]

I'm finding my 627 just doesn't like plated bullets much. The best loads so far are from best to next:

358 160 Bayou 2.7 Clays 1.170 Taper Crimp 830+.under 2"@25yds and 4"@50yds.

355 124 JHP MG 4.5 Competition 1.135 Taper Crimp 1050, about a 1/2 to 1 inch larger groups.

Tried 356 148 Plated, nothing worked, 357 147 plated with Competition gave 3-4"@25 yds and 5-6"+@50yds, 356 130 FMJ MG about the same as the 357 plated.

Haven't found any quantity of 357 Jacketed to use, But the Bayou load is burning clean and consistent and accuracy is about all I can use, have plenty of Clays and the Bayou's are a good price. Unless the load starts showing fouling issues in the cylinder I'm probably done looking.

FWIW saw at one on-line vendor that Titegroup was discontinued? Hope not, but it's impossible to find.

[mcb]

First Vihtavuori and now Titegroup! Hope your wrong Titegroup is pretty handy. If this keeps up we'll be back to black powder...

[alecmc]

I should have some data to mirror some of what mcb and pskys2 posted up in the next day or 2

loaded up some small batches of

38 short colt

160 grain bayou bullet

2.7 grains of clays

1.175

38 short colt

160 grain bayou bullet

3.0 grains of clays

1.175

will post data soon, will be shot out of a 6.5" barrel

Edited March 11, 2014 by alecmc

[brnhp35]

if we all end up shooting black powder it might just grow revolver division some more ?

[mcb]

Should we start the partitions for the cap and ball division. For the sake of the timers we might want to allow the competitors to utilize multiple handguns on a stage. The Outlaw Josey Wales division or something...

[alecmc]

Well, was hoping to have more promising results after chronoing some stuff today

got the following

38 short colt

2.7 grains of clays

160 bayou bullet

1.175" oal

Low - 774

High - 827

Average - 804

ES - 53

SD - 16

Power factor - 128.64

This one shot pretty well, extraction was fine, but at 128 power factor, it's a little too close to the razors edge for me

---------------------------------

38 short colt

3.0 grains of clays

1.175" oal

160 bayou bullet

Low - 822

High - 870

Average - 853

ES - 47

SD - 16.55

Power Factor - 136.48

I loved the numbers of this load, It's a power factor that i'm comfortable with, but it has sticky extraction, and some over pressure signs.

---------------------------------------------

38 short colt

160 bayou bullet

3.2 grains VV n320

1.175" oal

Low - 755

High - 822

Average - 783

ES - 67

SD - 23

Power factor - 125.28

This is a nice soft load, VV 320 burns real clean, but it's right on the mark at 125 power factor, no way I'd bring this to a match.

All groups were shot out of a 627 with 6.5" barrel, federal primers, in groups of 10 shots.

Any thoughts? I'd really like to stick with clays since I have a fresh 8 lb jug of it....

What is everybodys thoughts on if I take the 3.0 of clays @ 1.175 and back the oal off to 1.19 or 1.20 ? think I might maintain the FPS and eliminate the over pressure problems?

i'd really like a load around the 135 PF mark.

Edited March 12, 2014 by alecmc

[Dr. Phil]

Just curiosity... My 6" gun gives me 25 fps average increase with Federal SPM primers. Same increase across the board in revos and autos BTW. Might be the thing to push your loads "over the top"? I'm thinking along the lines of the VV320 or clays loads.

[pskys2]

I noticed a big jump between 2.7 and 2.9 grains of Clays also. On my scale, with my powder measure (old style as it threw the most consistent charges, the newer style that thumps down to keep you from double charging had more inconsistent throws and resulted in the wider velocity differences) I settled on 2.7 and am getting 830 f/s consistently.

I noticed at 2.65 I was getting 800 or less, went to the old measure and 2.7+ gave me 830+ consistently, going to 2.9 gave me 865+.with either measure. I've given thought to getting the small charge bar.

If you're using a newer dillon powder measure I'd go to 2.9 and try it. A 135 PF isn't too high and the difference between say 820 to 860 average would be less important than the accuracy of the load. And the 160 bayou at 830+ is giving me very good accuracy,

Edited March 12, 2014 by pskys2

[mcb]

alecmc, I would try bumping your OAL out just a touch 1.185-1.19 and maybe come down off the 3.0 gr to 2.9. I bet you will get a 133-134 PF and lose the pressure problems. Just a guess.

[alecmc]

alecmc, I would try bumping your OAL out just a touch 1.185-1.19 and maybe come down off the 3.0 gr to 2.9. I bet you will get a 133-134 PF and lose the pressure problems. Just a guess.

i'll give that a try.

gotta order more bullets from donnie in the morning.

[Shadowrider]

alecmc, for your Clays load I was also going to suggest increasing your OAL also and back off .1 maybe?

FWIW I'm having good luck with e3 at 138PF. 3.0 grains gets me there in my 6" gun with 160 bayous at 1.170 OAL. It's flake size is just about exactly like Clays and it meters the same, maybe a tad better but not enough to consider.

Edit: I took it all the way to 146PF before I saw hints of high pressure.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Shadowrider

[mcb]

Hey guys I was looking over at IbejiHeads and they are now sizing their 160 gr RN coated lead bullet to 0.358 for 38SC/38Spl/357Mag barrels. I have shot a couple hundred of the 0.357 in my 627 and they have worked pretty good. Will have to see how the 0.358 might work.

[pskys2]

alecmc, for your Clays load I was also going to suggest increasing your OAL also and back off .1 maybe?

FWIW I'm having good luck with e3 at 138PF. 3.0 grains gets me there in my 6" gun with 160 bayous at 1.170 OAL. It's flake size is just about exactly like Clays and it meters the same, maybe a tad better but not enough to consider.

Edit: I took it all the way to 146PF before I saw hints of high pressure.

How is the accuracy with that load?

[Shadowrider]

alecmc, for your Clays load I was also going to suggest increasing your OAL also and back off .1 maybe?

FWIW I'm having good luck with e3 at 138PF. 3.0 grains gets me there in my 6" gun with 160 bayous at 1.170 OAL. It's flake size is just about exactly like Clays and it meters the same, maybe a tad better but not enough to consider.

Edit: I took it all the way to 146PF before I saw hints of high pressure.

How is the accuracy with that load?

25 yards. Now don't go thinking this is it's ultimate capability or anything, to find that you'll have to find a better shooter than me.

Seriously though, I'm sure the flyers were me and I was shooting my 686-0 with the red ramp front and shallow notch rear blade. I know they would all go into the 8 ring with a good shooter and better sights.

[almostold]

Hey guys I was looking over at IbejiHeads and they are now sizing their 160 gr RN coated lead bullet to 0.358 for 38SC/38Spl/357Mag barrels. I have shot a couple hundred of the 0.357 in my 627 and they have worked pretty good. Will have to see how the 0.358 might work.

Just recd my order today - sized .357. I ordered .358. The SNS I have measure .357 so I'll see how they compare.

FWIW:

Avg weight of ibeji is 159.9 w/high of 160.9 and low of 157.9 - spread of 3.0 with 20 weighed.

SNS avg 161.3 w/high 162.9 low 159.6 - spread of 3.3 with 20 weighed

Ibeji appear slightly better cosmetically - completely round nose (no flat tip) and zero flashing. Both will be over chrono and grouped tomorrow with n320.

BBI should arrive soon. So far Barry's 158's are not grouping well out of my 627-3.

[seanc]

First Vihtavuori and now Titegroup! Hope your wrong Titegroup is pretty handy. If this keeps up we'll be back to black powder...

Titegroup is not being discontinued.

Straight from Chris Hodgdon...

"Nope-no Tightgroup for now. Since this powder is the best selling pistol powder in the country we have no plans to discontinue."

[MWP]

Ok I finally have some data to add, maybe my chrono is slower than everyone else's. CED M2. Scales triple checked, I always weight 10 and take the average, and check with a beam and second digital.

158 Berry's, Federal 100s, starline short colt, taper crimp, Titegroup:

3.0 @ 1.170 gave 106pf

3.0 @ 1.160 gave 109pf

3.2 @ 1.170 gave 117pf

3.2 @ 1.160 gave 119pf

3.4 @ 1.170 gave 125pf

3.4 @ 1.160 gave 128pf

3.4 @ 1.150 gave 132pf

3.4 @ 1.142 gave 132pf

The shortest 2 loads actually gave me the best accuracy. No pressure signs, and the brass and the gun stayed extremely clean.

On a different note, I did get the 147 extreme 9mm to make 133pf and group ok at 50. Good enough to use as a USPSA load, given the fact that I can get them much cheaper than the 158s.

Still puzzled why on paper I'm using a hotter load than everyone else.

[mcb]

Ok I finally have some data to add, maybe my chrono is slower than everyone else's. CED M2. Scales triple checked, I always weight 10 and take the average, and check with a beam and second digital.

158 Berry's, Federal 100s, starline short colt, taper crimp, Titegroup:

3.0 @ 1.170 gave 106pf

3.0 @ 1.160 gave 109pf

3.2 @ 1.170 gave 117pf

3.2 @ 1.160 gave 119pf

3.4 @ 1.170 gave 125pf

3.4 @ 1.160 gave 128pf

3.4 @ 1.150 gave 132pf

3.4 @ 1.142 gave 132pf

The shortest 2 loads actually gave me the best accuracy. No pressure signs, and the brass and the gun stayed extremely clean.

On a different note, I did get the 147 extreme 9mm to make 133pf and group ok at 50. Good enough to use as a USPSA load, given the fact that I can get them much cheaper than the 158s.

Still puzzled why on paper I'm using a hotter load than everyone else.

What gun are you shooting them in? I assume a 627, 4-inch or 5-inch?

[MWP]

627-5 5", TI cylinder

[pskys2]

Pretty much mirrors what I've found. Though haven't had much luck with the Extremes. And the Berry's do seem to throw consistent flyers that I don't get with Bayou's.

Thank goodness that Hogdon's isn't discontinuing Titegroup.

MWP it could be the Cylinder or Barrel is a little looser, or your chrono is running a bit slow, or your powder scales are a bit different (wouldn't say different mine could be showing light) or even a combo of those things. It's not a major difference so if no pressures, go with it.

Edited March 15, 2014 by pskys2

[MWP]

Loaded up some more of the 158 Berry's, the accuracy must have been lucky during chrono session. Now I can't seem to break 6" at 50, even with a red dot on.

How have the bayous been grouping?

I have never handled lead before, but my understading is that bayous have a coating that keeps things clean?

[pskys2]

Loaded up some more of the 158 Berry's, the accuracy must have been lucky during chrono session. Now I can't seem to break 6" at 50, even with a red dot on.

How have the bayous been grouping?

I have never handled lead before, but my understading is that bayous have a coating that keeps things clean?

I'm getting solid 2" groups at 25 yds. and at 50 yds rollover prone my records are showing pretty concentric groups no wild flyers and the groups are anywhere from 3" to 5"(largest). Average is seeming to be 3 1/2". My issue with any of the Plated bullets was a tendency to group 6 or 7 shots in a concentric group of 3" to 4" with 1 or 2 flyers enlarging the group by 3" or so.

So far I'm not seeing any leading issues with Bayou's and Clays. No granules in the cylinder and haven't seen any sticky insertions. But haven't been able to take it to a match yet.

I'm wondering if the issue with the Plated bullets isn't due to the jump to the throat ridge, any little nudge could be causing them to tip against that ledge and cause the flyer. Doesn't seem to do it with the Bayou's though and I'd think if this was the issue it would show up with lead, so I may be full of bean dip.