9mm Setback Issue

[johnhhuber]

I am fairly new to reloading and am having an issue with my ammo. I am loading 9mm with Rainier Bullets on a Dillon Square Deal B. I use mixed brass I collect and clean. I am having bullet setback issues (where I can push the bullet back into the case) on maybe 1 out of 100 rounds. Is this a problem with my reloader, the way it is set up, or me? I have searched this topic a few times but since my issue is not consistent, I wanted to start a new thread. Thanks in advance for any and all help!

[itlogo]

One possibility is that you're loading them too short and the neck of the casing is trying to grip the part of the bullet that's curved in, not the lower, flatter part. Could also be you need to get an undersized die to prevent pushback.

[Sarge]

One possibility is that you're loading them too short and the neck of the casing is trying to grip the part of the bullet that's curved in, not the lower, flatter part. Could also be you need to get an undersized die to prevent pushback.

Your first theory is highly unlikely and you can not put a Udie in an SDB.

Check the headstamp of the ones that set back. If they are all the same that is the problem. Federal case walls are thin in my experience as well as some of the lesser known brands that show up in mixed range brass.

Make sure your die is down as far as it needs to be. i.e. just kissing or very close to the plate.

[Jman]

What is your COAL?

Rainers are more than wide enough to grip the case with standard resizer...

You 'might' consider resizing on a seperate press utilizing a Lee "U" die to guarantee good neck tension.

Set back is bad juju man....

[Hi-Power Jack]

I kept reading re: setback and didn't believe my Square Deal was responsible for any,

but a year ago I tested it.

Loaded up 100 rounds with my SqD (9mm major - seated to 1.16") and ran them

thru the gun - fired another 100 rounds, alternating so I could keep the original

100 - then I measured the 100 and found more setback than you did - you found

1/100, and I found 20/100:(( I stacked the odds by loading the three headstamps

that people have reported were the worst for setback -

Some were set back very little, but some were set back quite a bit (I don't recall

the exact numbers - but I posted them here last year).

So, it seems the SqD dies do NOT do an adequate job of resizing the cases:((

If it's important (I've shot over 20,000 9 major rounds I've loaded with the SqD) and haven't

had any problems - then it would be prudent to get an undersized die.

I'm not buying a 550 yet, but have considered it a few times since I tested this

problem and found it to exist.

[johnhhuber]

Thanks all for the feedback on this. If I use a Udie on a single stage press before I run the brass through the SqD, will the undersized brass still function correctly in my standard barreled m&p? I am sure this is a dumb question but I want to be sure before I invest $60 in a single stage press and Udie. Thanks!

[Sarge]

Thanks all for the feedback on this. If I use a Udie on a single stage press before I run the brass through the SqD, will the undersized brass still function correctly in my standard barreled m&p? I am sure this is a dumb question but I want to be sure before I invest $60 in a single stage press and Udie. Thanks!

Absolutely. Udie is I think a thousandth tighter. Makes all the difference in the world though. Countless reloaders are using a Udie to make ammo for every type of gun out there.

[superdude]

Are you loading 9 major or 9 minor? And is your only gun the M&P?

1 in 100 is pretty good odds. you're probably better off than most people. I found setback in 95% of factory 9mm rounds, and it averaged 0.025". And that was with just one feeding cycle.

If you're loading 9mm minor, i wouldn't sweat it at those odds. Really.

[grapemeister]

Have you tried adjusting the crimp a little? I also have a Square deal and adjusting the crimp a little usually takes care of the problem. On the rare occasion I'll get a bullet to set back a little. If it rarely happens, I don't worry about it. Of course, it depends on how far the bullet sets back, and how easy, but I'm betting that it's not bad enough that you need to worry about the ocassional 1 in 100.

Edited December 25, 2013 by grapemeister

[grapemeister]

Are you loading 9 major or 9 minor? And is your only gun the M&P?

1 in 100 is pretty good odds. you're probably better off than most people. I found setback in 95% of factory 9mm rounds, and it averaged 0.025". And that was with just one feeding cycle.

If you're loading 9mm minor, i wouldn't sweat it at those odds. Really.

+1

[johnhhuber]

It is not the fact that I have 1 in 100 that scares me. It is the fact that in 1 in 100 I can push a good amount into the case, maybe and extra 1/4 of the actual bullet length. In fact, it has caused malfunctions in both my M&P and 9mm 1911 and it is visibly noticeable. I think I am going to give the Udie a shot. I am out of state at the moment visiting family and cannot look at the failed rounds but I am sure they were FC and Blazer. I know I have both types in my mixed brass and I would much rather sort that brass out and run it through the Udie than have a major setback issue. I only load minor at a 135 power factor so I have a little room for error…but I don't want to risk it and this is not a little room for error!

[Sarge]

It is not the fact that I have 1 in 100 that scares me. It is the fact that in 1 in 100 I can push a good amount into the case, maybe and extra 1/4 of the actual bullet length. In fact, it has caused malfunctions in both my M&P and 9mm 1911 and it is visibly noticeable. I think I am going to give the Udie a shot. I am out of state at the moment visiting family and cannot look at the failed rounds but I am sure they were FC and Blazer. I know I have both types in my mixed brass and I would much rather sort that brass out and run it through the Udie than have a major setback issue. I only load minor at a 135 power factor so I have a little room for error…but I don't want to risk it and this is not a little room for error!

You are wise to think this way. No setback should be considered OK. NONE! If you can push a bullet that much further into a case, imagine how much the pressure goes up. A udie and a nifty little single stage press is a good and cheap investment. Especially where safety is concerned.

[DougCarden]

OR you can take another sizing die along with the SDB die to a machine shop and have them turn down and rethread the regular die to fit the toolhead on the SDB and be back in business as well.....

DougC

[Steve RA]

Or you can use one brand of brass that you are not getting set-back from.

[Sarge]

OR you can take another sizing die along with the SDB die to a machine shop and have them turn down and rethread the regular die to fit the toolhead on the SDB and be back in business as well.....

DougC

I'm actually quite surprised this has not become common place.

[grapemeister]

Something still doesn't make since me, and perhaps somebody will post something to clear it up. I don't get why I'm not having the same problem, and I use mixed range brass. Maybe this is a problem unique to Rainier bullets?

I suspect there is something else going on that has nothing to do with the type of brass or bullets being used.

[Sarge]

I got setback with FC brass and MG bullets. I also got some setback with the speer family but not quite as loose as FC. I have tried to load some crap LY headstamp brass and could literally drop a bullet inside the case after sizing with a Dillon Die. It's real and it's out there waiting to sneak up on those who think it's never gonna happen to them.

We have had these discussions before and somebody always says they have never experienced it only to find out later that they did find setback in some of their loads. (In a PM of course) I am confident that the majority of casual reloaders don't even know to check for it. I also think these are the guys who post the occasional, " Had a KABOOM, What do you all think happened?".

[Steve RA]

One simple, visual way to tell is whether or not you have a pronounced "wasp waist" on the finished cartridge. If you do, it is very doubtful that you will have "setback" problems at all. If not, then you should use thicker case wall brass, larger diameter bullet or some method of sizing the case smaller.

[johnhhuber]

Thanks to everyone for the comments. As soon as I get home, I am going to install a single stage press and a Udie on my bench. After that, I will resort all my brass by manufacturer and load in sorted batches to see what brass I need to put through the Udie.

Sarge is right, I am new to reloading and did not even think this was an issue until I was getting the occasional malfunction and then noticing the bullet being shoved down into the case. I never knew before this to check for setback at the bench. Now I will!

Merry Christmas!

[ToddKS]

I know you are asking about 9MM but I went through a similar issue loading 45ACP and did a fair bit of investigation on this issue.

I determined that the problem was with certain brands of brass. In my case Remington (R&P head stamp), UMC, and Herters (HRTRS head stamp). The case wall not only measure thinner than other brands but the brass also seems to spring back more than the other brands which makes the problem worse.

I tested Rainer, Berry, and Xtreme bullets with the same results. The issue is the brass.

For now I am sorting out those head stamps and setting them to the side. I was able to load this brass successfully but it requires a different crimp die setting. For now I have enough other brass that I don't need to fool with it.

I would recommend identifying what head stamps have the issue and sorting those out your current lot of brass.

Todd

[Sandbagger123]

Take the ones that can be pressed in. see if they are the same headstamp. Take that one and use it as the basis for measuring your crimp. 9mm brass varies a lot in thickness, and using the thinnest brass as the setup brass sometimes helps to solve these isssues

[Sarge]

Take the ones that can be pressed in. see if they are the same headstamp. Take that one and use it as the basis for measuring your crimp. 9mm brass varies a lot in thickness, and using the thinnest brass as the setup brass sometimes helps to solve these isssues

Crimp does not hold a bullet in place. Case Neck tension holds a bullet in place. Too much crimp actually loosens neck tension.

[ToddKS]

Can you please explain your theory behind this statement? I would like to better understand the math behind it.

Neck tension is the difference between the OD of the bullet and the ID of the case mouth. Crimping reduced the ID of the case mouth which would, all else equal, increase neck tension.

Is the theory that by over crimping you are reducing the diameter of the bullet thus negating the potential increase in neck tension due to the crimp (which reduces the ID of the case and would otherwise increase the neck tension)?

[Sarge]

There is no theory that I am aware of. The fact is In a straight wall pistol case all you want to do is remove the flare. You don't want to really crimp the case around the bullet. Yes some over crimping can actually loosen neck tension. Pretty easy to do a search on these forums and find plenty of discussion on it.

LEE FCD can, from what I understand, actually swage a bullet down if adjusted too tight.

[Bob DuBois]

The first stage sizing die hold the bullet crimp only allows it to feed easier into the chamber, this is why I'm not a fan of the square deal press seen it before in 9mm. Have a friend who shoots on average 500 rounds a week in tight chambered 9mm 1911's. Has always loaded on a square deal and run his brass through a single stage press with the U die been doing it for years and gets good accurate rounds doing this. To me the second trip through the press is wasted time and would go to another press.

Before buying a single stage press do Doug's idea on taking a die to a machine shop and have them cut the threads to fit the square deal. I would suggest a Lee carbide die ether a standard or U die. I'm going to tell my friend to try that on his should save lots of time.

Good idea!