Can you have more targets than you're required to shoot?

[cas]

The original thought came when thinking about a long range stage for a club match, one pepper popper at 50-60 yards. (but what a pain in the butt that would be, walking 50+ yards to reset it each time.) So the thought was; If we put 5 pepper poppers out, but only required the shooter to shoot one of them, we'd only have to walk out there every 5 shooters. It's a club match, it would work, no one would care, but would it be "legal".

That original question/idea lead to another question; Could you make a Virginia count stage, say 20 rounds, with 15 targets, and have the WSB / stage diagram say "engage any 10 targets with 2 rounds each", letting the shooter decide which 10 out of the 15 to shoot? FTE's would only be given for less than 10 targets. It would give the shooters options, plus add a memory aspect. Might make for an interesting stage, but would it be legal in USPSA?

[jdphotoguy]

The original thought came when thinking about a long range stage for a club match, one pepper popper at 50-60 yards. (but what a pain in the butt that would be, walking 50+ yards to reset it each time.) So the thought was; If we put 5 pepper poppers out, but only required the shooter to shoot one of them, we'd only have to walk out there every 5 shooters. It's a club match, it would work, no one would care, but would it be "legal".

I'd think it would not be legal as the first shooter would have 5 targets to choose from, then the next 4, then 3 and so on. So the course of fire would be different for each shooter of the 5 and that in my book seems to be unfair.

That original question/idea lead to another question; Could you make a Virginia count stage, say 20 rounds, with 15 targets, and have the WSB / stage diagram say "engage any 10 targets with 2 rounds each", letting the shooter decide which 10 out of the 15 to shoot? FTE's would only be given for less than 10 targets. It would give the shooters options, plus add a memory aspect. Might make for an interesting stage, but would it be legal in USPSA?

Not sure on this one, doesn't seem illegal, as the course of fire would be the same for everyone, they just have to decide which 10 targets to engage.

Edited December 12, 2013 by jdphotoguy

[Nik Habicht]

First one -- no dice. Say he aims at PP1, but hits PP2 on his third attempt -- how do you score that? As a hit? As a miss? Now you have to reset after four shooters.....

Bad idea even for a club match.....

The only legal way I can think of it, is if five of the targets are disappearing targets.....

[Flatland Shooter]

That original question/idea lead to another question; Could you make a Virginia count stage, say 20 rounds, with 15 targets, and have the WSB / stage diagram say "engage any 10 targets with 2 rounds each", letting the shooter decide which 10 out of the 15 to shoot? FTE's would only be given for less than 10 targets. It would give the shooters options, plus add a memory aspect. Might make for an interesting stage, but would it be legal in USPSA?

Not sure on this one, doesn't seem illegal, as the course of fire would be the same for everyone, they just have to decide which 10 targets to engage.

Should be legal and sounds like a good stage. Maybe one of our local clubs will give something like this a try.

It turns out that you do not need to have all the shooters shoot the same targets for it to be a legal stage.

Last year at the Texas Open we had a stage where each target had a frame that was either red or green. On the buzzer the shooter turned over a card and the color of the card determined which set of targets they needed to engage.

At the time I thought we would have a problem getting NROI approval, but turns out I was wrong. Went right through.

Bill

[CHLChris]

Reset at 50 yards sounds like a job for the juniors...

[Flatland Shooter]

That original question/idea lead to another question; Could you make a Virginia count stage, say 20 rounds, with 15 targets, and have the WSB / stage diagram say "engage any 10 targets with 2 rounds each", letting the shooter decide which 10 out of the 15 to shoot? FTE's would only be given for less than 10 targets. It would give the shooters options, plus add a memory aspect. Might make for an interesting stage, but would it be legal in USPSA?

Not sure on this one, doesn't seem illegal, as the course of fire would be the same for everyone, they just have to decide which 10 targets to engage.

Should be legal and sounds like a good stage. Maybe one of our local clubs will give something like this a try.

It turns out that you do not need to have all the shooters shoot the same targets for it to be a legal stage.

Last year at the Texas Open we had a stage where each target had a frame that was either red or green. On the buzzer the shooter turned over a card and the color of the card determined which set of targets they needed to engage.

At the time I thought we would have a problem getting NROI approval, but turns out I was wrong. Went right through.

Bill

Edited to add:

But note at 20 rounds, you cannot make it Virginia count (Rule 9.2.3.2).

Edited December 12, 2013 by Flatland Shooter

[cas]

Could you set the maximum possible point value lower than the theoretical value of the targets? Say 100 maximum points, even though there's 150 worth of targets?

So it's not Virginia count, but there's no benefit to shooting more than 10 targets? (of course scoring that would be a nightmare, I wouldn't even know how you could do that. Oh well, that way's out. lol never mind that idea.

Edited December 12, 2013 by cas

[sperman]

I don't see how you can have more targets on the COF than you are required to shoot.

9.5.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a course of fire with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty per target for failure to shoot at the target, as well as appropriate penalties for misses (see Rule 10.2.7).

[sperman]

It turns out that you do not need to have all the shooters shoot the same targets for it to be a legal stage.

Last year at the Texas Open we had a stage where each target had a frame that was either red or green. On the buzzer the shooter turned over a card and the color of the card determined which set of targets they needed to engage.

At the time I thought we would have a problem getting NROI approval, but turns out I was wrong. Went right through.

Bill

That doesn't sound like a legal stage to me. Just because something makes it on the ground at a L2, doesn't necessarily make it legal.

[whitedog]

9.5.7. I believe this rule makes extra targets illegal.

I guess if you went outlaw you could do it. Some go outlaw with monster matches...why not stuff like this?

[cas]

We'll have to save it for the non USPSA matches.

[Flexmoney]

We'll have to save it for the non USPSA matches.

I'd shoot all your poppers down and make you walk out there anyway. I like to shoot stuff.

You might look into setting the popper up so that it can be reset with a rope pull. Our local cowboy shooters hook up an apparatus to our mini-poppers that lets them do that.

[JFlowers]

Spike it down solid and run a long rope or go to something like the MGM Self Resetting Popper or Speed plate.

[bikerburgess]

I ran a stage like this a few moths back (1 popper at 75yd) I set 5 poppers down range about 10' apart and had the shooter and RO agree before make ready which popper was the target they were engaging. I believe that 2.1.7 implies that having multiple targets down range of a competitor that they are not required to engage is acceptable, I also used a forward fault line instead of a shooting box so each competitor could be as square to their target as they wanted. the majority of the shooters really enjoyed the challenge and the ones that didn't just took the miss and the zero and the squads got into it cheering for each other when they hit the popper on their first, fifth or 30th shot.

Mike

2.1.7 Common Firing Lines – Courses of fire where multiple competitors are
required to fire simultaneously from a common firing line (e.g.
Standard Exercises, Shoot-Off), must provide a minimum of 5 feet of
free space between each competitor.

[Chills1994]

Granted, I'd like to sell more of my self resetting poppers, but....

United

States

Practical

Shooting

Association

Also, read points #5, #6, #7 of page i of the rulebook .

IMO, shooting at a target at 50 yards with a pistol is not practical .

Edited December 12, 2013 by Chills1994

[sperman]

2.1.7 is for multiple competitors firing at once. The only time I've seen this done was on a fixed time stage with turning targets.

Did you have a stage consisting of 1 target? A popper at 75 yards?

[Flexmoney]

IMO, shooting at a target at 50 yards with a pistol is not practical .

I'd disagree. That is what is nice about USPSA... having lots of stage designers and varying stages.

[Chills1994]

It would be one of those stages I'd walk up to and think "WHAT THE ....? Must have been an open shooter who designed this stage!"

If it was up to me, I'd get rid of points 1-8 on page i entirely since it appears not everybody pays attention to it. Coupled with that, "practical" is not defined in the back of the rulebook.

But, that's just like my opinion, maaannn.

[ac4wordplay]

Did you have a stage consisting of 1 target? A popper at 75 yards?

I attended the match. Yes, the stage consisted of 1 popper at ~ 75 yards. No real downside - minimal scoring disadvantage if you tanked it, or decided not to shoot the stage. The match normally consists of 6 stages, IIRC, that match consisted of 7 stages (so that no stage would be sacrificed for this single popper stage).

The stage was (unanimously?) well received by participants. Iron sights were predominant at the match.

[whitedog]

50 yards...not practical. Only going by Mr. Coopers own writings. In a non-military scenario, or police action, a 50 yard shot is a liability. Hardly practical. Now put a NS (hostage) 1/2 way in front of a target...and you had 1shot....that would be an actual practical answer to that scenario.

I'm in favor of a fun shoot, like a monster match or far targets. But don't call it practical.

[NMBOpen]

It would be nice if targets like MGM Auto-poppers were legal for USPSA.

[Chuck Anderson]

50 yards...not practical. Only going by Mr. Coopers own writings. In a non-military scenario, or police action, a 50 yard shot is a liability. Hardly practical.

I'll mention that to the officer who took a shot last weekend at 120 yards. He should have gotten closer like the officer did right before when he was shot. We've had a number of shootings at my agency. The average distance has been well past 25 yards for the last couple years. Most have been rifle shots. But we've had some long pistol engagements and even a successful stop at 100 yards with a 12 ga. One pellet of buckshot hit the suspect in the carotid and stopped him immediately. My idea of practical is staying as far away as possible and still dealing with the situation as safely as possible. 50 yards is not that far. As much respect as I have for Col. Cooper, going solely by his writings from several decades ago doesn't make anyone an expert.

[Chills1994]

I've had one police academy instructor and one SWAT cop tell me they are still taught it's still "three to fives":

Three to five shots fired

Three to five yards

And over in three to five seconds

Not that I would want every stage at a match to be just 5 shots.

That would get boring quick.

But that page i still says "hypothetical", so.... <shrugs shoulders>

More thread derail in progress: I hate seeing those "tetris barricades" in all those AR15 videos....arrghhh

[Chills1994]

It would be nice if targets like MGM Auto-poppers were legal for USPSA.

It would be nice if I could get a 42" popper into a 24" inch flat rate box. So far it looks like I'm stuck with Colt style poppers fitting into a FRB.

[austex]

I don't see how you can have more targets on the COF than you are required to shoot.

9.5.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a course of fire with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty per target for failure to shoot at the target, as well as appropriate penalties for misses (see Rule 10.2.7).

Suppose, for example, the stage briefing said "select any 3 of the 6 targets as the scoring targets and engage the scoring targets with 2 rounds each." Suppose further that the competitor does just that, and engages 3 of the six targets with 2 rounds each. Why couldn't the 3 non-selected targets be considered as something other than a "scoring target," rendering 9.5.7 and 10.2.7 inapplicable?