dbooksta Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Maybe I should rephrase the question: To what distances do master shooters point-shoot? I first suspected top shooters routinely point-shoot when Mas Ayoob wrote a column about how he shot a better match with a shorter Glock, which wouldn't make sense because of the reduced sight radius ... unless he were point shooting. Now I just saw Bob Londrigan's article in the current FRONT SIGHT in which he advocates competitors train to point shoot (though not in those words). Would any veterans care to weigh in on whether they are aware that they point shoot, and if so to what distances, or under what circumstances they positively acquire the front sight before shooting? I realize that shooters with a lot of experience may not realize they are point shooting, so if this is the case I would love to run an experiment in which a shooter runs a course with a familiar gun, then the grip angle is somehow modified (to an unconventional angle if he is experienced with multiple standard angles) and he has to shoot the course again. I'm suspecting experienced shooters would score much more poorly on hits and/or speed in the second event, whereas amateurs who still must consciously use their sights would perform about the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 (edited) I haven't read the same articles, but I suspect you may have misunderstood what they were saying.. Law enforcement are trained to point shoot at no more than about a yard from a suspect. I have to qualify every year doing the same thing, It's otherwise known as hip shooting. Other than that, use the sights always. To what degree of focus on the sights at different distances is another argument. It varies from shooter to shooter. I guess I should add that what I consider point shooting may not meet the definition of what someone else considers point shooting. I consider point shooting just pointing the gun with no awareness of the sights. Someone else may qualify point shooting as at least seeing the sights in the peripheral. Edited November 7, 2013 by grapemeister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbooksta Posted November 7, 2013 Author Share Posted November 7, 2013 (edited) Just to clarify: Point-shooting doesn't mean hip-shooting. Assuming the circumstances allow, when I point-shoot I present the gun the same way as when I take aimed shots. The only person who knows I didn't acquire the sights before shooting is me. I'm not bad with a Glock, the handgun with which I practice the most, but when I switch to a gun with a standard grip angle my point-shots are very low. When I ran this question by Mas he agreed he might be subconsciously doing it, but he's so experienced with every gun we couldn't readily find one with a grip angle that would throw him off if he were point-shooting. Edited November 7, 2013 by dbooksta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 (edited) If you have time to bring the gun to eye level, you have time to use the sights. It doesn't have to be a clear perfect sight picture I also would not take shooting advice from Ayoob Edited November 7, 2013 by Supermoto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Just to clarify: Point-shooting doesn't mean hip-shooting. Assuming the circumstances allow, when I point-shoot I present the gun the same way as when I take aimed shots. The only person who knows I didn't acquire the sights before shooting is me. I'm not bad with a Glock, which is the handgun I practice the most with, but when I switch to a gun with a more conventional grip angle my point-shots are very low. When I asked Mas about this he agreed he might be subconsciously doing it in practice, but he's so experienced with every gun we couldn't readily find one with a grip angle that would throw him off if he were point-shooting. Only using hip shooting as an example...should have worded it differently. Nonetheless, if I've got the time to raise a gun to eye level, I'm going to at least have some awareness of the sights even if they're just in my peripheral. Different gun or unfamiliar gun, all the more reason to use the sights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 If you have time to bring the gun to eye level, you have time to use the sights. It doesn't have to be a clear perfect sight picture I also would not take shooting advise from Ayoob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbooksta Posted November 7, 2013 Author Share Posted November 7, 2013 I guess I'm assuming that if your focus remains on the target, and you don't take the time to confirm sight alignment, then you're not using the sights (with the exception perhaps of those neon triangle sights that you could align out of focus), and that's what I'm calling point shooting. If you can get the same score with no sights on the gun as with sights then that would be evidence you're point-shooting. Maybe another test for point-shooting would be to run through targets in sufficiently low light that you can't your sights, with and without tritium sights. Or if you're running an optical sight just turn it off and run through a course and see how you do compared to shooting with it on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 I guess I'm assuming that if your focus remains on the target, and you don't take the time to confirm sight alignment, then you're not using the sights (with the exception perhaps of those neon triangle sights that you could align out of focus), and that's what I'm calling point shooting. If you can get the same score with no sights on the gun as with sights then that would be evidence you're point-shooting. Maybe another test for point-shooting would be to run through targets in sufficiently low light that you can't your sights, with and without tritium sights. Or if you're running an optical sight just turn it off and run through a course and see how you do compared to shooting with it on. you don't need to focus on your sights to confirm alingment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whoops! Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 (edited) The highest level grandmaster shooters will routinely point shoot if the first target from draw is large and at 5 yards or less. They fire while coming up out of the holster and again when on target. This is the only circumstance I know of where many at the highest level intentionally won't use the aiming device. Edited November 7, 2013 by Whoops! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Ok time to fess up No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TroyB Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 I have wondered about this same thing. I'm not the most experienced shooters, not the least experienced either. I have found myself in the last few matches not focusing on my sights at targets in the 3-5 yard ranges, or at least I don't recall focusing on my sights, either way, I know I'm not "calling my shots" if I understand that term correctly. Either way, on those targets I've been getting mostly A's or mostly lucky, but still wonder if that's the proper way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whoops! Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 (edited) At those distances, I'm almost positive the highest level shooters see their sights or sighting device for the first shot, but not the second . . . Except as I mentioned above and unless there's a no shoot covering most of a target, then they will see their sights for both shots. I don't consider not seeing the sights for the second shot, "point shooting," I consider it proper follow up for a aimed first shot when the target is x distance away and uncovered. Also forgot to mention, I used to do exactly what you're describing. Then I got to a point where I could see the sights fast enough through transitioning that there was no time advantage for me to not see the sights at that distance. Literally, I move the gun where I want it and the sights are already aligned or the dot is already on target and I'm well aware that they are or it is. To get to that point, it's a combination of muscle memory and eye focus. Edited November 7, 2013 by Whoops! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbooksta Posted November 7, 2013 Author Share Posted November 7, 2013 I don't consider not seeing the sights for the second shot, "point shooting," I consider it proper follow up for a aimed first shot when the target is x distance away and uncovered. Agreed -- "double-tapping" or subsequent shots to a static target off a single initial sight picture are a separate skill from point-shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 http://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/06-03.pdf On a stage like this you can get away with instinctive shooting on the T1 & T4 targets - open targets less than 6 feet away from the gun depending on how long your arms are, but you need know your gear and get the A’s. Other than targets where you can almost touch them, I’d say no…it isn’t a reliable way to get good hits. Point shooting is what I do when I get tired or lazy, and it rarely ends well. Gotta give each target its due respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverBolt Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 http://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/06-03.pdf On a stage like this you can get away with instinctive shooting on the T1 & T4 targets - open targets less than 6 feet away from the gun depending on how long your arms are, but you need know your gear and get the A’s. Other than targets where you can almost touch them, I’d say no…it isn’t a reliable way to get good hits. Point shooting is what I do when I get tired or lazy, and it rarely ends well. Gotta give each target its due respect. This stage I would be using sights. You have no shoots and a Virginia count. Very easy to drop a lot of points by going too fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 So are you defining point shooting as shooting without the pistol in your field of view? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latech15 Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 I don't use sights at all. They just get in my way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 I have point shot targets that are within 10 feet. Not purposely, but I realize after the stage that I am seeing the holes and not the sights. My definition of point shooting is to not completely aligning the sights - basically looking down the gun and not really using the sights. My hits are usually good when I do this - but then, targets are usually close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 The last IDPA match I went to, there was a stage with all the targets at less than 5 yards and in the open. One guy on my squad missed one shot on a target. He couldn't believe he missed the hole target at 2 yards. I bet he didn't see his sights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 So are you defining point shooting as shooting without the pistol in your field of view? I took it to mean what BE describes in his book as a type I focus, which (IIRC) is basically no visual input...you rely on nothing but your muscle memory and familiarity with your hardware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 So are you defining point shooting as shooting without the pistol in your field of view? I took it to mean what BE describes in his book as a type I focus, which (IIRC) is basically no visual input...you rely on nothing but your muscle memory and familiarity with your hardware. I like sights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 I don't often use my sights...but when I do I hit the target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapemeister Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 I don't think it's one of those things you think about when shooting, or plan when doing the walk thru of a stage. I'm sure I point shoot targets set at hoser distance of no more than a yard or two away. For USPSA/IPSC purposes I think it's a healthier mind set to always use the sights, and always practice using the sights. That mind set will help a shooter, especially a newer shooter, from getting sloppy. I think it's a good thing to practice for self defense purposes, especially when drawing from concealment and engaging very close targets when it would not be practical or safe to extend the arm all the way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickd1 Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 I have point shot targets that are within 10 feet. My definition of point shooting is to not completely aligning the sights - basically looking down the gun and not really using the sights. My hits are usually good when I do this - but then, targets are usually close. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 For USPSA/IPSC purposes I think it's a healthier mind set to always use the sights, and always practice using the sights. Even if you don't conscientiously notice you sights doesn't mean you didn't use them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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