praetorian97 Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) Limited 40 cal. 180gr Flat Nose FMJ Having a little more failure to feeds than Im comfortable with. Starting at OAL and case taper. Whats yours? Edited October 21, 2013 by praetorian97 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 180gr Precision Delta projectiles at 1.140" OAL & 0.420" crimp in K-40 magazines with Henning base pads and Grams springs and followers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e-mishka Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Bear Creek 180gn FP, oal=1.135, using k40 mags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praetorian97 Posted October 21, 2013 Author Share Posted October 21, 2013 Thanks guys. I know this is dependent on my load data as well but out of curiosity what recoil springs are you running? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e-mishka Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Thanks guys. I know this is dependent on my load data as well but out of curiosity what recoil springs are you running? I use 10# Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Right now I have a 12 lbs but I will most probably be switching to a 10 lbs very soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praetorian97 Posted October 21, 2013 Author Share Posted October 21, 2013 I have a Henning 10.75 I was using but it felt like recoil was easier to manage with the stock 12lb. I may switch back and just work on my grip and arm positions. Crazy how much the little things like even limp wristing can affect a guns operation. I have some Wolff 11lbers I may toss in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerritm Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 My 40 Limited always had a few feed issues with 180grfp. 2-things I did to help. Increased the amount of crimp on the 180's, not sure why this helped, but it did and switched to 165gr round nose flat point. Eliminated all my occasional feed problems. Kept the heavier crimp with them. Gun runs 100% now. Not sure what spring I have in it, had some unmarked springs and tried a couple of different ones until I found one that shot the softest. All of the springs fed and worked the gun with the 165rnfp. gerritm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praetorian97 Posted October 22, 2013 Author Share Posted October 22, 2013 Also wondering if the Stiffer Recoil Spring is causing short stroke. I talked with Nealio and it would make sense. When I am "making ready" if I ride the slide back even just a little the first round hangs up just so slightly. Switching to the Henning 10.75lb in one and the 11lb in the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogiebb Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 1.130 oal and .418 crimp FCD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HazB_Shootin Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Previously I was running 1.135, but recently got ahold of some 10mm mag bodies and with Grams/38Super followers I can load all the way out to 1.255 if I wanted. I'm still working through the loads using BBI 180gr TCs at 1.230 with TG and 1.21 with AA5 but they show promise. Why? I measured from the muzzle to back of the breach, then from muzzle to tip of bullet (held by the back of a small screwdriver to keep it against the lands) and it came out at 1.298! Subtract the normal .1 - .15 and that is still way longer than the standard 1.135 I was using. Thought being the accuracy should improve (feeding would improve as well but I wasn't having any issues at 1.135). I'm sure I am not the first to try this. If you are running into any feed issues the longer OAL could help. Anyway, back to your question - 1.135 to 1.140 would load/feed well in my standard 40 mags (grams follower/springs with Henning basepads). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glk21C Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 just make sure those mag bodies are tuned as they are notorious for not feeding well (I am assuming you mean the pre-K-* mags). I get 20-21 in mine but had them tuned up by Jim Anglin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottQ Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 I have had problems with my 9mm Witness stock feeding when my OAL was too long, so I think you're on the right track, at least to the extent that there are any similarities between 9mm and 40 S&W. I haven't studied this in as much detail yet as I'd like to, but it seems as though the rifling is closer to the chamber in the Witness than in my other 9mm pistols (Glock and Springfield). Rounds which will cycle perfectly fine in the Glock and the Springfield will jam up in the Witness, where the slide will stop about 3/16 of an inch short of fully going into battery. Bullets with a rounded nose profile seem to work much better than those with a more conical/flat top profile, and I have to load my MTG hollow points at a much shorter OAL than my more rounded Sierra bullets. My question would be when you have a failure to feed, what exactly is happening? In my case the slide fails to go into battery by about 3/16". Is that happening with you also? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praetorian97 Posted October 23, 2013 Author Share Posted October 23, 2013 This is only happening at matches so I have no real picture but this stock internet photo shows pretty much what is happening. I think its a short stroking issue because when I make ready and don't let go of the slide this will happen. A lighter recoil should help this out. We will know shortly. I have two matches this weekend. Clean gun. Lighter Recoil spring. And same ammo batch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottQ Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 That picture is more consistent with what I've also experienced when a lighter recoil spring was needed, and looks quite different from what I run into when my OAL is too long. I would agree that a lighter recoil spring should solve the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praetorian97 Posted October 23, 2013 Author Share Posted October 23, 2013 I dont know if obtaining a resolution to this issue is worth having to tell Nealio he was right..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HazB_Shootin Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Hopefully the lighter spring resolves your issue - there is a quick way to tell if your OAL is to long though. With the barrel out take one of your loaded rounds and with moderate thumb pressure push it into the chamber. Now tilt the barrel down and tap the side - the round should fall out easily. If not the bullet is contacting the rifling - this could also lead to higher pressure in the case, which in turn sticks in the chamber and could cause short cycling since a lot of the blowback energy is used to dislodge the case from the chamber. The slide can close if the OAL is to long - it just jams the bullet further into the case (bullet setback), if the OAL is excessively to long then the slide will not go into full battery. Good luck this weekend! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praetorian97 Posted October 30, 2013 Author Share Posted October 30, 2013 Recoil Spring. Went back to stock half way through a match and had only one fail to feed in three stages. Shot a match the next day with the same ammo batch. Zero failures in 5 stages. Looks like I am sticking to 12lber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glefos Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 I had an opportunity to shoot the FL Open a few years ago with an engineer that claimed to have worked on the team that designed the Tanfoglio. He was kind enough to spend 15 min with me in the safe area and pointed out the areas to improve reliability and the areas to improve performance. The picture above is an issue that I occasionally experienced and asked him about. You can use a heavier spring or fix the issue and use whatever spring you want. As the round is chambering, it is pivoting on the top of the feedramp as it is chambered. When it jams it looks like the round is nose up into the top of the chamber as in the pic above. The engineer recommmended moving the feedramp forward a few thousandths. Make sure not to break through the bottom edge with the radius or change the angle. Option two was to open up the top outside edges of the feedramp. Slightly opening up the top of the feedramp lowers the pivot point and eliminates the issue as well. This is what I did. Again, this is only a matter of a few thousandths. I then polished the entire feedramp. With the naked eye, you cannot tell this has been done. I am over 15k rounds and the issue has never happened again. Short stroking is caused by changing the length of the mechanical stroke (ie shock buff) OR a grip that is too weak for the chosen spring weight. Short stroking can be identified by the nose impacting the bottom of the feedramp. The more firm the grip, the lighter spring you can use. I use aluminum buffs and anything .125" or less is 100% reliable for me with a 10lb spring. I have also removed 1.5oz from my slide as well. Becareful with the diagnosis. Worn out mag springs and mags not seated high enough (mag defect or old style/worn mag release) can cause bullet impact below the ramp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praetorian97 Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 Mags and springs are only a few months old. Brand new MecGars, Grahams Follower/springs. Do you have pics of the mods you speak of? I'm most likely too novice to try but curiosity has sunk its hooks in. The gun shoots pretty flat as you can see here. (Dont judge me. It was a slow day and Im new this year) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIsbkjXbseY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Praetorian97> To run lighter recoil springs the feeding of the rounds from the magazine to the chamber needs to be perfect. The best way to test the feeding quality is to slide lock the gun, insert a magazine with rounds in it, then drop the slide by releasing the slide lock. Remove the magazine, then slowly rack the round out of the chamber. Then closely inspect the head and tip of the bullet to look for strange dents, scuffs or scratches. If there are any marks on the head or tip of the bullet this tells you that the bullet is hitting something excessively as it is chambering. It also helps if you put a sharpy mark on the brass and register the round in the magazine with the sharpy mark pointing straight up. Using the sharpy mark to define the orientation of the round as it is being chambered will allow you to figure out if you are hitting the feed ramp or the top of the chamber excessively. Changing the trajectory of the round as it is chambered is mainly done by modifying the width of the magazine feed lips. Making the feed lips narrower will lower the insertion point of the round as it is chambered. Making the feed lips wider will raise the insertion point of the round as it is chambered. For example, I am using the old style 10mm magazines and the feed lips MUST be at a width of .380 - .385 to feed properly. If they are wider than that the tip of the round will hit the top of the chamber entrance. If they are narrower than that they will nose dive and hit the very bottom of the feed ramp. Both of these scenarios will cause a failure to feed jam. Since I have fine tuned the feed lip width on my magazines properly I can get away with running any weight recoil spring (even as low as 6lbs) and still maintain proper feeding. Currently I am using an 8lb recoil spring on my .40 Limited Major gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praetorian97 Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 Thanks Cha-Lee. I will give that a try. Need to clean the old steel up first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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