Accuracy vs Speed

[Jake Di Vita]

shmitz,

So in your opinion, shooting 40% of the points available on a target is ok? (Assuming you are shooting major, it is much worse in minor).

I consider a D a no penalty mike at best. Not ever an acceptable shot.

Trust me, I know, if you knew me a year or two ago, I had very little focus on points and just blazed...and I was absolutely stumped about why I couldn't get out of B class.

(General challenge)

Do this. Out of the next 2 majors you shoot. Shoot one with speed as the focus. Shoot the other with speed and accuracy as the focus. I guarantee the 2nd version will win every time.

[diehli]

I consider a D a no penalty mike at best. Not ever an acceptable shot.

Agreed.

Mike Voigt has some steel metric silhouettes that are only the A-B-C zones. Very helpful in a class environment.

[spook]

Henny, I think Jake is right.

My question to you is, why would you shoot a D? It takes no extra time to get an A or a C. The only reason IMO to get a D is if you're not accurate enough, or if getting anything else is risky (no shoots etc.)

Now, I know you're accurate enough (Bianchi shooter) so go for the middle

An other thing that got me to a new level was the realization that "points are time". Most people focus on being fast, because that is what wins matches. Well, I tried to turn it around. If I could shoot only A's and a couple of C's, I wouldn't have to shoot like a maniac. An A instead of a D will pay for itself instantly in HF points.

[schmitz]

Trust me, I know, if you knew me a year or two ago, I had very little focus on points and just blazed...and I was absolutely stumped about why I couldn't get out of B class.

Jake/Spook,

This is my problem at the moment. I'll consider your idea and give it a try. Thanks for the advice.

But first I have to deal with another problem because as the timer goes Beep tension is building up in my body, I can't stay relaxed and therefore my shooting isn't smooth. (IPSC)

Fact is: I do not encounter this problem in Bianchi with the fixed time strings.

So, there's my solution

[spook]

Henny, Max Michel had a great tip on relaxation. At least, it worked for me. He said you should see the beep as a start signal, nothing more.

Why the tension? In IPSC there are no fixed time strings. You can take as long as you want

[schmitz]

Henny, Max Michel had a great tip on relaxation. At least, it worked for me. He said you should see the beep as a start signal, nothing more.

Why the tension? In IPSC there are no fixed time strings. You can take as long as you want  

Muhahahahahaha, Spook I know.

But why the tension: I don't know..that's what killing me!

As of today I've started training without a timer, my focus just on smooth gun handling! What happens next I don't know; first of the year: Amersfoort should be a testcase...

[Flexmoney]

Tension comes from being focused on outcomes.

When you can learn to focus on executing the fundamentals...and can trust yourself [to except that your proper execution of those fundamentals will lead to the best results you are currently capable of]...then the tension will subside.

[spook]

Thanks Flex. Your spot on again

[Dalmas]

Björn, Sometimes it does take longer to get the A and it might not be worth it. IMHO many stages (almost all) at the European Championships favored speed over accuracy and minor was fubar from the get go (not an excuse for shooting as poor as I did) but with short to only moderate distances and a lot, a lot of partial targest taking the x-tra time to get the A was sometimes not the road to success.

I'm limited to minor (and the Justice Dep. just declined my application for .40 S&W for the world shoot ) And looking at the photos of the range in Guayaquil I bet it will be the same there. Anybody has an extra .40 I can borrow

[mcoliver]

After shooting a match yesterday, I learned a valuable lesson about accuracy at speed; Never take for granted in-your-face, partial targets.

[Jake Di Vita]

Give me an example of when it would take longer to get an A?

I don't buy that arguement at all, but I'm willing to listen to your side.

[Bear1142]

Schmitz,

Tension is nothing more than the anticipated result of your performance. Concern yourself WITH the performance, not the result.

Erik

[Dalmas]

Give me an example of when it would take longer to get an A?

I don't buy that arguement at all, but I'm willing to listen to your side.

Jake, My side is two fold, accuracy vs speed and at the same time minor vs major. When you have a partial target cut horizontally it is slower to shoot 2 A's than giving the center of the target 2 shots (with luck 1 A & 1 C). At the EC there were a lot of stages with partial targets at various pretty close distances. This works on medium course with moderate movement.. ie high hitfactors.

I discussed it with a few top std shooter and yes they did go for the 2 holes in the center of the scoring surface on some targets because it was faster. Shooting minor that is not an option because you'd give away too many points.

[spook]

Mats, I think you are right. There are situations where it will take longer to get an A. Usually these are situations where getting the A is risky. Especially with the unbalanced target selection at the EC (they were 70+% partials! )

I think the reason they did this is to create "distance". They have many bays that are only 15-20m deep. The problem with cutting up the targets vertically, is that you cut the A-zone in half over the full lenght, making an A-zone hit a peripheral hit, with the possible risk of a miss of a penalty. This only creates distance between Major and Minor shooters. These kind of targets should therefor be the exception, not the rule IMO.

But to get beack on topic. I think that if you have say, a partial like that 25m out, you should just go for centre mass, or the A/C line, depending on skill. If you go for an A there, you'd better be able to call your shots with the utmost precision.

But at some of the distances at the EC, you'll be surprized at how fast you can get A's on those partials. 5 - 10 m out it shouldn't make much of a difference.

Keep in mind that you'll get extra points, so you can take longer to get it (duh )

[mcoliver]

Give me an example of when it would take longer to get an A?

A mis-timed swinger in its return swing and you only have a rapidly disappearing C-zone. (Compound the fact that you have a smart COF designer who uses a covered metal hard cover to conceal the swinger. )

[Jake Di Vita]

I agree that when there is a 70% partial target it is worth taking a C or two (IF you are shooting major). However, even if the target is a 80% partial, I would still not advocate shooting Ds.

[spook]

Jake, the targets were not 70% covered or exposed. What I meant was the imbalance of targets used in the match, because about 70% of the targets used were either 50% visible or had some serious hardcover/penalties. Most targets were like this:

The blue area is hardcover.

The problem with those targets IMO, is that they are discriminating between Major and Minor shooters, because they place the highest scoring zone to the edge of the targets. Going for an A here is risky, while on a normal targets, the A-zone is the safest zone to aim for, because it's right in the middle

On these targets, it really pays to shoot major. And if you have one of these at 30 yds, I'm aiming centre mass

[Jake Di Vita]

Ah, I understand now. I agree with those targets and shooting major I'd be willing to take some C's (but not D's). Shooting minor I'd have to go for the A's. Shooting at 50 yards I too would go for center of mass...with either power factor.

[spook]

Yeah, so that's where I think Mats is right. It will take you longer to hit an A on a target like that. The only thing I can think of is to let the sights creep to the A/C line and "hope" for the best

I hope you will get that .40 soon Mats. Bummer you can't have it before the World Shoot

[Stuck in C]

I just got out my calculator and checked my results from the last season in the local matches-I was shooting 85-90% A's in production and was dead last in most matches and stages. Many of those who beat me had fewer A hits but were so much faster they cleaned my clock. The leaders shot A hits fast. As it was said above its not speed or accuracy, its speed and accuracy. More dry fire practice!

[Flexmoney]

I look at those targets and think....free Alphas :)

[spook]

I look at those targets and think....free Alphas :)

At the one I pictured? At 20 yds? Man! I must be doing something wrong

[Jasonub]

After shooting a match yesterday, I learned a valuable lesson about accuracy at speed; Never take for granted in-your-face, partial targets.

and dont try to duplicate a first place finish the week before when you have a fever during this weeks match

with regard to the partial target thats painted as hardcover. id still shoot a's on that since its very close. if its farther ill balance it with speed and might opt to shoot charlies

[Flexmoney]

I look at those targets and think....free Alphas  :)

At the one I pictured? At 20 yds? Man! I must be doing something wrong

Looks like 3m to me?

[Dalmas]

Yeah, so that's where I think Mats is right. It will take you longer to hit an A on a target like that. The only thing I can think of is to let the sights creep to the A/C line and "hope" for the best

I hope you will get that .40 soon Mats. Bummer you can't have it before the World Shoot

Right on the money Björn! And looking at the photos of the bays for the WS my guess is that the same will apply there, a lot of partial to create the feel of distance. I have no problem with partial targets... I do have a lot of problems with minor.

I'm not putting the hours I do into this sport to get my ass whopped in minor.. I've promised myself that I will shoot .40 at the WS... I just haven't figured out how yet... I can pracitice in Sweden with one but that's it...