RUT ROE???

[Moondoggie]

Took my stock Para P-16 to a gunsmith yesterday to have a trigger, hammer, sear, etc installed with the aim of improving the trigger pull/break.

When I got the gun back, I dry-fired it a couple of times and thought that there was considrable improvement so I put it in the case and drove the 150 miles home.

OK, first, I should admit that I can be a moron at times. When I get home late in the evening and start to really look over the gun I'm flabbergasted! The safety lever won't move.....doesn't look like it's clearing the notch in the slide. Thinking to myself "This can't be right." So I break out the installation instructions on the "SFS" (Safety Fast System...never heard of it before) kit that they installed. Upon further reading I discover that my safety is no longer a safety, it is now a "cocking lever". The "system" works like this: cycle a round into the chamber, push hammer forward, engage "cocking lever" (upward a barely perceptable amount)....now you have 3 safeties engaged. To fire, press down on "cocking lever" (again, a very slight movement) and the hammer springs back to the ready to fire position.

I'm having pretty mixed feelings about this, and a lot of questions. One primary question that comes to mind is what effect these mods might have on the classification of my gun...is it still Limited?

Anybody know anything about this "SFS" system??? Thought I'd try to pick a few brains here before I called the gunsmith and say something like "Imagine my surprise." I'm headed down to my local gun shop (where I bought the Para) to see what my dealer knows about this...he's a pretty knowledgeable guy.

Any input would be greatly appreciated, and please feel free to tell me what an idiot I am!

[Flexmoney]

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/sfs.shtml

[Mistral404]

Call Bill Laughridge at Cylinder and Slide.

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/

Cylinder & Slide, Inc.

P.O. Box 937

Fremont, NE 68026

Phone:

FAX:

Orders Only: (402) 721-4277

(402) 721-0263

(800) 448-1713

Bill has been doing this work for some time now.

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/sfs.shtml

This is his write-up on the SFS.

I do not believe this modification turns your blaster into a Production gun.

It would be interesting to see what USPSA has to say about it.

[SmittyFL]

What the hell???? Never heard of that one. Did you ask for it? I can't believe they would do that without your permission. I don't get the advantage to the "system".

This is from their website.

1 Fast Reaction Time. The pistol is always ready to shoot and safe with a cartridge in the chamber.

2 The trigger always returns to the same position.

3 The trigger movement and the trigger pull remain the same for each shot as with a conventional single action pistol.

4 The trigger over travel stop improves the stability of the pistol during firing.

5 Three safeties, locking the slide, locking the sear, and locking the hammer, are all activated or deactivated in one operation.

6 The operation is simple and ambidextrous.

7 Low Price.

8 Thanks to the reduced size of the hammer, it is easier and safer to draw the pistol from its holster.

9 The S.F.S. kit drops into an existing pistol.

1,2,3,4,6,7,9 are true with any trigger kit.

5 seems pointless and I don't understand 8.

I'd dump it and put the orginal stuff back in.

[Moondoggie]

Cylinder and Slide is the shop that did the work.

I talked with Bill Laughridge before I went up there, but when he talked about the SFS kit I had no idea of the concept. He didn't go into details, so I just thought the work being done was replacement/fitting of identical parts; only better. Like, maybe SFS stood for "Stainless Finish Somethingorother". If I'd have understood the concept I'm not sure if I'd have gone through with it. Seems like a good idea, but I'm not sure of the ramifications for USPSA or resale value of the gun...not that I'm likely to sell it. It's just that I've never heard of this SFS system before, and now I've got one. And it's inside my gun. The trigger is a vast improvement, however.

Going to a match tonite at The Bullet Hole in KC, so I'll ask the proprieter and some of the other shooters/club president about it. Also try it out. Hope I like it. I'll let you know.

Thanks very much for the responses!

[sfinney]

My understanding is thats intended for carry situations where a person is not comfortble with a hammer back "cocked and locked" mode of carry, but still wants the single action 1911 trigger, ready to fire by just flicking the safety.

I've shot one of these in a hi-power, and its pretty slick, and being Cylinder and Slide, you know its made well.....

But for IPSC, you have to wonder why you'd want this mod.

Or even for carry, if you like a cocked and locked 1911.

[SmittyFL]

Well, if you say the trigger is a vast improvement, I guess it can't be all that bad.

My only concern having never seen or heard of this would be durability. Most guns and parts aren't made for what we put them through. The average gun owner doesn't put through a gun in it's lifetime what we do in a year.

But like sfinney said, if it's C&S it's probably good stuff.

I still don't see the point, especially for competition. But keep us posted.

[Moondoggie]

When I first spoke with Bill Laughridge we discussed that I was using the gun for IPSC, and he commented that a stock Para trigger was probably slowing me down.

The president of the club in KC recommended C&S, so that on top of your positive comments is reassuring. There is a 2 yr gaurantee on the SFS "kit".

I'll let you know how the live-fire test phase goes tonight.

Thanks again for the input!

[Rob Boudrie]

I would expect that the substantial nature of the design change involved in an SFS trigger is sufficient to render the gun non-compliant for USPSA limited division - Ask John Amidon for a formal NROI ruling.

It always helps if your gunsmith know of specific requirements like "must remain eligible for limited/production/whatever competition"

[EricW]

please feel free to tell me what an idiot I am!

Wouldn't the idiot be the one that put this bizarre system into a competition gun? Tell them to make it right or give you a refund.

[Flexmoney]

Before we all go too far in calling this trigger system crazy...we need to realize it is just different.

I'm not sure why it came into being, but C&S has had it around for quite a while. (I'd guess that it came about as a possible fix for "cocked and locked" that some Gov or Leo agency was looking for.)

When I took the C&S Gunsmithing class...it wasn't long after Para had come out with their LDA. I asked Bill if the Para system was the same as his...he assured me they were quite different.

Moondoggie, if you talked with Bill about your gun, he must have somehow got the impression that this was the answer you were looking for. I don't think it is like him to give the customer something they don't want (in fact, sometimes he will give the customer what they want even if he disagrees with them).

I can't see where this would make you gun illegal for Limited. I would classify the changes as "internal modifications to improve accuracy, reliability and function"...which are allowed.

You say it is better than what you had...and C&S is know for good parts and trigger work. I'd try it out. Let us know how it goes.

[rhino]

It is very odd that they would install an SFS kit without someone actually asking for it. Sounds like a "failure to communicate" to me. I would expect C&S to understand and be willing to do what moondoggie really wanted (i.e. a professional quality trigger job with replacement parts as needed) for no more than whatever the difference was in the price of the two work packages.

That's what I would expect, anyway.

[EricW]

If C&S *knew* this gun was for competition (and I don't know from the above that is indeed true), putting this type of fire control system makes no sense. It clearly is designed to solve the "cocked and locked carry" issue.

[kimel]

What was it the Col. said about DA....a solution for a problem that doesn't exist? This seems to be in the same class.

There was a school of thought going around that carrying cocked and locked indicated to the prosecution that you were looking for a fight. I think that one went away many moons ago.

A friend of mine as one of these in his carry gun and it really is kinda slick. I just haven't managed to convince myself it is worth the $$$.

I sure as heck wouldn't want one in my competition gun.

[Carlos]

Hmmm . . . not what you "expected." However,

1) You have a trigger you described as follows: "The trigger is a vast improvement, however"

2) You began with a Para which is only legal in 3 Divisions: Open, Limited & L10. Your gun could possibly now be considered a "DA" gun (ask Amidon); which means either way the question is answered, your gun is still allowed in the previously-mentioned divisions. Nothing lost & a slim possibility that Production division was gained.

3) Everyone agrees the parts & work have a reputation for quality & you had them installed by the manufacturer/inventor himself (with a warranty).

At this juncture, there does not seem to be any disadvantage to the work for use in USPSA. Please let us know how it performs. It might be of interest to the rest of the competitive shooting community. Regards, C.

[Dan Burwell]

I'd call Bill back, this system is meant for carry guns that are not often fired, while the ones I have installed are impressive and you can get nice trigger pulls. But, the parts are all MIM, not that all MIM parts are bad, and I felt the metal to be too soft for hard use.

For a game gun I'd stick to the tool steel hammers and sears they will hold up much longer.

FWIW. the kit is not really made by C&S it is by a company R.D.I.H out of belgium.

Oh yeah the safety if fit properly should still be a safety in that it should still block all sear movement.

Please don't think I am saying these kits are junk, quite contrary I would put one on my carry gun. They are well made and work well for thier intended purposes.

Dan

[EricW]

You have got to be kidding me. Does anybody seriously think that watching your hammer pop back in your face every time you draw isn't a distraction? Does anybody not think that the natural inclination is going to be to disengage the safety waaay too early in the draw, so that one doesn't have the hammer popping back while acquiring the sight picture? Does ANYBODY seriously think the tiny little springs/cams/whatever the hell makes that thing tick are going to withstand 10,000+ rounds a year?

I'll throw 5 bucks into the pool and bet that Rube Goldberg trigger job screws the pooch before the 10K round mark.

[Dan Burwell]

ROFL.

tell us what you really think Erik.

look out, I think I see a dog coming!

[wide45]

In all the draws I have made, I can't remember ever seeing the hammer. I don't think that is an issue.

[Guy Neill]

My recollection is that the SFS system originated on the Browning High Power for police (European) use where the "cocked & locked" could not be tolerated. It then was adapted to the 1911 and marketed for carry guns. The inventor was somewhat cross with me when I pointed out it had little or no application to competiton guns. Not that it cannot be used, but there is no real need.

The system seems to work well. Unless it is ruled unsuitable for competiton by the rules, and if it is otherwise an acceptable trigger, it should do the job.

Guy

[Moondoggie]

Ok, friends and neighbors...now for the range report:

The first 15rds or so in practice before last nite's match were in single shot mode. That's because the slide locked to the rear after each round. I changed mags (BTW, during the work at C & S I had a steel mag catch installed.) after about 5 rds, but no improvement. I got pretty proficient at BANG, release slide, BANG...also could FEEL my blood pressure rising. However, after about 15 rds it began to cycle normally. (In the middle of the first stage it did it again just once...so hopefully this is gonna work itself out, more practice will tell.)

The trigger was a vast improvement. My groups during the match were noticiably tighter. I shot better, so that's a plus.

The hammer flipping back to full cock was no distraction, it happens in the blink of an eye when you disengage the thumb safety. The hammer being pushed forward during LAMR WAS a point of interest to both RO's.

No one thought that these mods rendered the gun illegal for competition in Limited Class. (I should email USPSA and ask them for a ruling/opinion in case I need it someday.) The only real difference in gun handling is the requirement to push the hammer forward after chambering a rd before engaging the thumb safety. The addition of the ambi thumb safety (Now known as a "Cocking Lever") is a plus for me, since my wife is left handed.

To clarify comments above, Bill and I DID discuss the intended use of the gun. He knew that I specifically purchased it for IPSC competition. He made the comment that a stock Para trigger was probably "Slowing me down." He originally intended to just ship me the kit and I would install it...further conversation led to the understanding that I didn't have the mech skills to do this, hence the drive up there and wait 3 hrs for installation vs wait 3 months and send it in for trigger job. The failure to communicate was in me not questioning what "SFS" stood for, and his assumption (I guess) that I knew what it meant. If I had known what it was I would have never put it in my gun.

Now that it's in there, I'm not sure what to do. As far as standing up to hard use goes, there is a 2 yr gaurantee. C&S has a good reputation, so I'm sure I can get it fixed if the need arrises. Not too happy about the prospect of a 3 month wait for a repair. Since I just bought the gun in Aug, I'm sure I can kiss any warranty by Para goodbye.

Bottom line; I've got a White Elephant on my hands. This is not what I wanted.

Thanks for all of the input!

[Moondoggie]

PS:

Please note that I am NOT slamming Bill Laughridge or C&S.

My purpose in posting here was to seek info and opinions as to the nature/usefulness of this modification from folks whose experience and knowledge I respect as greater than mine.